Zodiark's Codex entry what do we think about it?

[Brinne]

I mean, you could understand why it would be a little weird, from an Ancient's perspective, when their method of research would provide results so quickly and meticulously. I don't know why it would be strange for them to think him a bit of an oddball, even if we can understand the reasoning behind it (particularly since society in general seems to be valuing a "going back to basics" approach to living right now.)

Yeah, I'd compare it to someone riding a horse for transportation nowadays versus using a car, or in a less extreme example, communicating through letters and faxes instead of email or text message. (And it's not like the Cthonic Horns are outlaws or banned or anything! They have their own research facility on their own island, and they're known throughout Elpis! No one is even hostile to the idea of trying something they've come up with!) The horse-rider and letter-writer aren't wrong, per se, and yes, there are advantages on both a micro and macro level to appreciate to not go for the most "efficient" way each time. But it's also a far cry from a black and white issue.

I will say I actually don't disagree with, of the "lessons" the narrative tries to spin about Amaurot, the point that culturally they seem inclined to under-appreciate the potential an unexpected outcome may present if one thinks outside the box (although obviously that principle still has its passionate advocates, like the aforementioned Cthonic Hipsters or the Firebrand Amaurotine from Emet-Selch's city.) But it's also not weird, let alone creepy or oppressive, for other people to think that kind of fixation sort of odd and not really get the point at a glance. It's pretty normal, just in a fantasy context. Heck, barely so, when you consider this quest revolves around a piece of fruit and compare the Discourse around GMOs and such in our own world.

I've done the Elpis side-quests, but it's been a long time, and re-reading some of them is just reminding me all over again how much I love the Ancients and what excitable, sweet, well-meaning nerds most of them really are. Wait, what's this--

Well now, there's a familiar I'm not familiar with. ...Ahem. Apologies, I couldn't help myself.

I see... all this time, I was wrong... they all needed to be exterminated after all...

[Lunaxia]

As it has for me, which is why I wasn't entirely sure.

My take on it is that Amaurot seemed to be the equivalent of the "America" of the Ancient world, the discussion at the Hall of the Rhetoric over Amaurot's intervention in foreign affairs reminiscent of the debate surrounding the US' unofficial role as a "global policeman." Taking that perspective, we could infer that though they may not necessarily have held authority over neighbouring countries, Amaurot was still likely considered the most influential and powerful nation in the world (given that it was lauded as the intellectual pinnacle of civilisation, and taking into account how magic works) that was similarly looked to as a de facto leader of sorts during global events.

In the case of the volcano, I would assume they had an official stance on dealing with affairs abroad which perhaps limited intervention to incidents they felt required it (emergencies, potential threat to life, etc.) that they were expected to follow, and Azem said "no."

...Well, that they exist, and that vineyards and wineries are a thing. Which feels tongue-in-cheek, but that's actually helpful; the existence of vineyards and wineries confirms the existence of industries that we couldn't necessarily take as a given in a world where everyone can just create things by magic.

Funnily enough, I don't think they actually mention anything about a winery - it's simply the logical inference where growing grapes is involved.

I do believe alcohol exists in some form in the Ancient world, though, if only because I struggle to see how Emet-Selch could have survived Hyth and Azem otherwise.

[RyuDragnier]

In the case of the volcano, I would assume they had an official stance on dealing with affairs abroad which perhaps limited intervention to incidents they felt required it (emergencies, potential threat to life, etc.) that they were expected to follow, and Azem said "no."

Azem in a nutshell.

[Lyth]

Amaurot's beliefs around conformity and governance aren't overly important, because everyone has their own cultural preferences and biases around these things. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee that the leadership of a democratic system need intrinsically be less corrupt and self-serving than a nation led by a self-selecting group of oligarchs. Even if the Convocation's rule was absolute, at the very least you could come to see them as benevolent dictators prior to Zodiark's influence. Conscription into public service is just a practical consideration that can occur in any society.

The real question is simply whether you unironically take Emet's beliefs that his people were 'superior' to ours at face value. I think if you do want to artificially elevate the Amaurotines to be 'superior' to the rest of us, then you are in fact depriving them of their humanity. How could mere mortals like ourselves attempt to relate to the whims of 'the gods'? If, on the other hand, you recognize that Emet's claims are strongly influenced by his jingoism, then you're humanizing Amaurot. We've seen plenty of empires through history that have claimed to be 'the greatest nation that ever was', even when they're well past their prime. What's to say that Amaurot is any different from the likes of ancient Rome?

The more that we learn about Amaurot, the more it seems to be just another people, another place, albeit with an overabundance of power. That's neither a good or a bad thing. One of the reasons why I really like snippets like the Lv. 70 Debate and Discourse sidequest referenced earlier is because it breaks away from that Ptolemaic mould which artificially placed Amaurot and its Convocation at the centre of the Ancient world. What were the cultural views of that foreign metropolis 'across the pond'? Did they genuflect to the Amaurotines as 'shepherds of the Star', or did they have their own independent beliefs, values, and cultural pride?

Even in that same quest, there is a discussion around whether it would benefit Amaurot to intervene if only to use the foreign calamity as a testing ground for their latest creation magicks. Which makes me wonder - what would a less 'technologically' driven nation in that era look like, and how would their sundered descendants differ from us? As an example, what would a 'faith' based Ancient society look like in which summons were revered or even worshipped, rather than viewed as tools to be bred and discarded? Might they have a more spiritualistic inclination, like the Cetra? Could there have existed societies in that era that drew on dynamis rather than aether?

This sort of thinking opens up avenues for a wider range of story possibilities, rather than tying all stories and historical developments back to an isolationist Amaurot ruling over the 'provinces' from on high. It also opens up Azem's origin story as well, because they need not be tied down to one specific culture by birth or upbringing.

[Vyrerus]

face value jingoism

The setting of FFXIV is fundamentally different to all comparisons you're making in this post. It is laid down within this setting that the World Unsundered and its inhabitants were the original and natural state of the world. Unlike Rome or any other real world empire, the Ancient world in FFXIV was post war. The implications surrounding Amaurot's sister city is that there were other places the world over, not Amaurot, but like Amaurot. We don't have any specifics on them, as of now, but sister cities are cities that are basically reflections of each other because they exchange in culture to a heavy extent.

And we can completely take Emet-selch's factual statement at face value, because the game itself showcases every manner in which it is true. Unsundered people had higher aetheric density and whole souls. This allowed many of them to perform creation magicks, but more than that it meant they lived longer, were larger, were free from disease, and other similar things. That's all exposited, but what's shown to us with regards to Unsundered people is their power level, more or less. They are capable of spells and feats that only the supremely talented members of our Sundered cast can do with the aid of what are perceived of as gods. To defeat Emet-selch took the most powerful Sundered individual, one of his remaining soul shards fusing with him, and then 7 of the most powerful Sundered individuals of our age. In addition to the 7 other Light Warriors called by G'raha Tia. In addition to white auracite, and turning the power of the Lightwardens into a weapon against him.

Beyond that still, and most importantly, is the fact that the Azem Stone and its incantation are Unsundered Magic. In wanting to lessen the Ludonarrative Dissonance for why we always have 8 man parties, the devs for XIV have succeeded in making us entirely dependent on an Ancient, Unsundered Spell. And with that, within Endwalker, Hydaelyn bestowed her own Unsundered Magic onto the stone, which we used in Ultima Thule not only to bring back the Scions, but to first bring back two Unsundered Ancients who then used their mighty creation magicks to make Ultima Thule a physical realm so the Scions could be brought back without unmaking it.

You take the most powerful sundered magi that we know about, and we can see examples similar to Ascian levels of power in some of them, but none of them could do what the Ancients do wholesale without first being gifted Ancient memories, spells, and knowledge.

The Sundered World is still reliant on hand me downs from those who came before. Otherwise, we would have failed to save it numerous times now. This is how they are explicitly shown to be superior.

As far as other societies go in the Unsundered World, it stands to reason that they were similar to Amaurot in many ways. Peaceful. Advanced. Comfortable. Intellectual. Yet, none of them are important to our story, because they didn't cause problems as big as Amaurot, nor did they solve any problems that Amaurot brought about.

This essentially makes Amaurot the world leader of Ancient times by fiat of praxis. As with all other storylines in FFXIV, the WoL and their compatriots are only concerned with nation leaders, though they save common people often, they never change any place from the ground up by getting in with the commoners first. The closest we get to doing that is Stormblood's Far Eastern arc where we rally the Doman people in Yanxia before ever meeting with Lord Hien. Of course, we immediately turned to Hien upon finding him, and defaulted to his royal decree ever after.

So even if we learn new things about the World Unsundered outside of Amaurot, it doesn't really do anything for our already established Amaurotine Azem, and it opens up other cans of worms. Even if Azem was an outsider to Amaurot before joining the Convocation, the fact is that Azem still embraced that way of life. Azem saw that they could do the most good by taking up that position, rather than any other city or any other government in the entire Unsundered World. Even Venat having traveled the world over still adhered mainly to Amaurotine society.

[Zero-ELEC]

And with that, within Endwalker, Hydaelyn bestowed her own Unsundered Magic onto the stone, which we used in Ultima Thule not only to bring back the Scions, but to first bring back two Unsundered Ancients who then used their mighty creation magicks to make Ultima Thule a physical realm so the Scions could be brought back without unmaking it.

That's not what made Ultima Thule a "physical realm". Hope made Ultima Thule a physical realm. The Elpis blooms just showed that the realm was suffused with it.

[RyuDragnier]

This sort of thinking opens up avenues for a wider range of story possibilities, rather than tying all stories and historical developments back to an isolationist Amaurot ruling over the 'provinces' from on high. It also opens up Azem's origin story as well, because they need not be tied down to one specific culture by birth or upbringing.

I'm still of a mindset that Azem is from one of those other places. Personal headcanon is that Azem is from a place more in tune to nature and open to ideas and creativity. Basically the opposite of Amaurot. If we were to declare Amaurot the "Order" of the world, the place Azem is from is the "Chaos" of the world. A place that raises people to be themselves instead of following the overall "Order" of the society. Not to say there aren't rules there, but they're much more open to creativity, expression of the self, and more akin to Idylshire or the Azim Steppe in terms of how the society is.

[Lyth]

I don't think that you can unironically use words like 'superior' and 'inferior' in reference to other human beings. This is one of those things that is by its nature not objective or mathematical. While you can be proud of your strengths, they don't make you intrinsically 'superior' to another human being.

I'm still of a mindset that Azem is from one of those other places. Personal headcanon is that Azem is from a place more in tune to nature and open to ideas and creativity. Basically the opposite of Amaurot. If we were to declare Amaurot the "Order" of the world, the place Azem is from is the "Chaos" of the world. A place that raises people to be themselves instead of following the overall "Order" of the society. Not to say there aren't rules there, but they're much more open to creativity, expression of the self, and more akin to Idylshire or the Azim Steppe in terms of how the society is.

I'm of a similar view. That's not to say that Azem couldn't have absorbed their share of Amaurotine values from the likes of Emet and Elidibus over time. But as a non-conformist who was censured at least twice by the Convocation (to the point that the Convocation refused to preserve the memories of Azem's post for future generations), it seems that growing up as an outsider and a misfit in Amaurotine social circles would line up very naturally with that origin story. At the very least, the less definitive constraints that are placed on Azem's story, the more freedom players have to construct their own player character's stories in relation to their progenitor's spirit.

On a related note, I'd really like to see that same clash of values between 'Order' and 'Chaos' be encapsulated in Summoning magic. It strikes me as really strange that Summoning in this story has been dismissed as an inferior substitute for Creation magic, especially when the former is easily one of the most iconic and recognizable spell casting techniques across the 35-year franchise. It really deserves better. I would love to see a FFXIV society that gets Summoning 'right' - a village of summoners who use a combination of spiritual faith and forming bonds with their summons to in order live in harmony alongside them, perhaps in the vein of FFIV's Mist or FFIX's Madain Sari. I think there are plenty of opportunities to explore what Summoning really entails if we head south to Meracydia, given what we know of their historical war with Allag. Bonus points if they trace their lineage to one of those foreign nations observed by Amaurot from 'across the pond'.

[RyuDragnier]

On a related note, I'd really like to see that same clash of values between 'Order' and 'Chaos' be encapsulated in Summoning magic. It strikes me as really strange that Summoning in this story has been dismissed as an inferior substitute for Creation magic, especially when the former is easily one of the most iconic and recognizable spell casting techniques across the 35-year franchise. It really deserves better. I would love to see a FFXIV society that gets Summoning 'right' - a village of summoners who use a combination of spiritual faith and forming bonds with their summons to in order live in harmony alongside them, perhaps in the vein of FFIV's Mist or FFIX's Madain Sari. I think there are plenty of opportunities to explore what Summoning really entails if we head south to Meracydia, given what we know of their historical war with Allag. Bonus points if they trace their lineage to one of those foreign nations observed by Amaurot from 'across the pond'.

Even more bonus points if the name of that area of Meracydia (or of that foreign nation apart from Amaurot) is the Feymarch.

[Lunaxia]

I don't think that you can unironically use words like 'superior' and 'inferior' in reference to other human beings. This is one of those things that is by its nature not objective or mathematical. While you can be proud of your strengths, they don't make you intrinsically 'superior' to another human being.

"Superior" can be used objectively and subjectively. Emet-Selch tells us that the Ancients were superior in terms of strength, intelligence, robustness and longevity. At least two of those (strength and longevity) can be measured mathematically, but that's irrelevant here, because the story already confirmed the Ancients do indeed possess these traits anyway. So in that respect, he was objectively telling the truth.

What is subjective, however, is whether these qualities make the Ancients superior or subsequently more deserving of life as a race overall. And I don't think anyone here or within the story is claiming that, or that Emet-Selch wasn't categorically wrong for believing otherwise. But that still has no bearing on humanising Amaurot itself, or why you have to view everything Emet-Selch tells us as a lie in order to do so.