DPS should be WAR > GNB > DRK > PLD

[Mithron]

And utility should be PLD > DRK > GNB > WAR as a result to fulfill proper class fantasy.

Change my mind.

[fulminating]

An argument made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Why do you think it should be that way?

[Zordrage]

I would say

DRK = GNB > WAR = Paladin

Less Sustain More Damage

More Sustain Less Damage

Just my opinion.

[Lyth]

DPS, utility, and mitigation, and self-sustain should be PLD = WAR = DRK = GNB, unless you feel that your personal shortcomings and insecurities as a player warrant a performance advantage over everyone else. The execution need not be the same, but the capability needs to be on a level playing field. Bring the player, not the job.

[Oizen]

Yeah but WAR players really would be upset if we deleted Nascent and Bloodwhetting

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

All tanks should contribute the same damage with Crit/DH being and player skill level. Tanks all bring virtually the same thing so I don't see the point in the large disparity in DPS between tanks that was experienced this expansion. ShB was the best balance of tanks, and that should be the bare minimum gold standard of balancing among tanks. The self-sustain is negligible at best in the content that matters, and in dungeons, the self-sustain determines how lazy the healer gets to be, but makes no difference long term.

[Tigore]

Problem is, WAR has really high survivability with the Bloodwhetting and pretty much has a better Reprisal with the Shake It Off shield / HoT on everyone. I have been told that WAR is doing very well with the damage buffs to Fell Cleave and pretty much is a top damaging tank now. DRK fell off being the one tank with no buffs to damage and everyone else getting attention. It's pretty hard to justify a lower survivability tank to also have lower damage compared to everyone else.

To make your model a reality, Mithron, WAR may have to give up a lot of the self healing utility from Bloodwhetting, Nascent Flash and Shake It Off. The alternative is to give more self heals / mitigation to GNB and DRK while also putting the healers to sleep even further than how it is now for them >.> I was told that I didn't need much heals when I was fresh for Dead Ends as a WAR about half a year ago. I even commented recently how being overgeared for current Expert roulettes legitimately start to drop Regen from my WHM healing for the tanks. The tanks only need it at the start of big pulls now when we are all geared.

As a result, increasing the GNB and DRK self heals would not be recommended if the healers are already starting to drop some of their tools in response to the low amount of heals needed. Yes WAR used to be the DPS tank, but we need to consider if it's worth it to drop our Bloodwhetting, Nascent Flash and Shake It Off down some pegs.

[Oizen]

Problem is, WAR has really high survivability with the Bloodwhetting and pretty much has a better Reprisal with the Shake It Off shield / HoT on everyone. I have been told that WAR is doing very well with the damage buffs to Fell Cleave and pretty much is a top damaging tank now. DRK fell off being the one tank with no buffs to damage and everyone else getting attention. It's pretty hard to justify a lower survivability tank to also have lower damage compared to everyone else.

To make your model a reality, Mithron, WAR may have to give up a lot of the self healing utility from Bloodwhetting, Nascent Flash and Shake It Off. The alternative is to give more self heals / mitigation to GNB and DRK while also putting the healers to sleep even further than how it is now for them >.> I was told that I didn't need much heals when I was fresh for Dead Ends as a WAR about half a year ago. I even commented recently how being overgeared for current Expert roulettes legitimately start to drop Regen from my WHM healing for the tanks. The tanks only need it at the start of big pulls now when we are all geared.

As a result, increasing the GNB and DRK self heals would not be recommended if the healers are already starting to drop some of their tools in response to the low amount of heals needed. Yes WAR used to be the DPS tank, but we need to consider if it's worth it to drop our Bloodwhetting, Nascent Flash and Shake It Off down some pegs.

We don't actually know what the best tank damage is yet, and likely will not until the end of next week. WAR has always done better immediately after a patch on extreme content than the other tanks, combination of DRK's entire advantage being less in its kit itself and more in its synergy with raid buffs, and WAR not having to spin the wheel as much for crit/dh due to inner release.

[RyuDragnier]

We don't actually know what the best tank damage is yet, and likely will not until the end of next week. WAR has always done better immediately after a patch on extreme content than the other tanks, combination of DRK's entire advantage being less in its kit itself and more in its synergy with raid buffs, and WAR not having to spin the wheel as much for crit/dh due to inner release.

We'll find out pretty soon. If DRK ends up below GNB in damage, we may see people drop DRK since GNB would have better damage and better party utility. We already know WAR or PLD will be a shoo-in for the other slot due to their better party mitigation capabilities.

[HyperiusUltima]

We'll find out pretty soon. If DRK ends up below GNB in damage, we may see people drop DRK since GNB would have better damage and better party utility. We already know WAR or PLD will be a shoo-in for the other slot due to their better party mitigation capabilities.

I think it was a mistake to give Shake It Off a Regen to buff up its support game. Essentially, it's a far stronger Divine Veil; except with Regen. It was already doing fine before they tacked that on, but after it's part of the reason why we had a Healerless TOP Clear. While I will say WAR did need the damage, now they have too much utility to compensate. As for PLD, the issue was instead with fight design for a tier that caused it to operate poorly and not fit in well with the timings of raid buffs. It was the only one that did not fit into the 2m buff window compared to other tanks.

Generally, in regards to EX6, there doesn't seem to be any issues for any of the tanks mitigation-wise so it comes to an arms race for DPS. However, staring at the current state of The Site That Shall Not Be Named, it seems GNB has top damage currently, and the buffs put PLD barely over DRK and WAR up quite a bit given their burst window buff; and that's just Week 1. Looking at it on its face, it looks mostly balanced looking at Max, but PLD does worse starting from the 80th Percentile, potentially saying that PLD still is weaker than DRK in some respects unless they play perfectly.