Revert Shatter back to the Original Map

[RyanCousland]

Worth dropping this here, I think:

"The new Shatter, and why you're playing it wrong"
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ying_it_wrong/

Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation/inference but it seems like the post can be summed up in "prioritize kills over objectives" which isn't a new concept hell one of the pvp discords has/had a whole thread devoting to this principle so the buzzfeed esque post doesn't offer anything useful aside from a good eye roll, my apologies if in the event this comes off as me directing my criticism at you which isn't the case,

[Archeron]

It doesn't seem like a surefire victory being just under 200 points away from second to win by pure PvP, though if your team was particularily aggressive (and coordinated enough.) you could just steamroll the two other PvE teams that are split apart plonking at small nodes the entire game.

I feel like if you want to win with pure PvP in this version of shatter you have to be aggressive against 2nd place the entire game, and not ignoring the big ice nodes - and making enough kills to pay for the small ices your team isn't hitting, and balancing out your attacks on both teams else the one not being focused will surpass you in whacking pinatas for points.

I preferred employing the pure PvP strategy in the original shatter. Ignoring nodes and mopping up both teams 2 or 3 times could end the game in less than 6 minutes. If this map of shatter wants to be on that same level they need to cut the ice spawns down, get rid of small nodes, or maybe remove plonking at ice entirely and just reward points for being in a capture zone. Reducing the number of points to earn a win would also be necessary.

[RyanCousland]

Role utility was a lot more cancerous with healers. Everybody seems to have forgotten how having a pocket healer that had the ability to spamm heals AND rescue you when shit hits the fan literally made you almost invincible. Those kinds of BH5 players were literally playing on god mode.

And then the pvp reworks before mid ShB it was no medkits at all, so it was essentially the team fielding 2-3 healers vs the one fielding none that was guaranteed a win.

And instead of cancerous healing we have complaints of LBs or specific skills or jobs that are "op" not to mention the tank disparity that is the opposite of the healer problems in pre 6.1, I understand the healer concern truly but I think a potency reduction across the board would've alleviated that, (a cure 3 that was 400 and instead 300 is still better than no cure), now we've dug ourselves in this pit where we can't touch a job without neutering it

[Valence]

And instead of cancerous healing we have complaints of LBs or specific skills or jobs that are "op" not to mention the tank disparity that is the opposite of the healer problems in pre 6.1, I understand the healer concern truly but I think a potency reduction across the board would've alleviated that, (a cure 3 that was 400 and instead 300 is still better than no cure), now we've dug ourselves in this pit where we can't touch a job without neutering it

You seem to assume I stated that one was better than the other.

The past was also not clean of "OP" jobs, like NIN during SB especially, and DRG during ShB.

[RyanCousland]

You seem to assume I stated that one was better than the other.

The past was also not clean of "OP" jobs, like NIN during SB especially, and DRG during ShB.

neither assumed or implied as i stated previously pre 6.1 had issues in various post but the differences are if the devs had put in as much time and effort into that generation of FL as they are now then we would have been on a better path to progress to the mythical goal of "pvp balance", i cant speak on SB unfortunately i wasnt there, personally i think EW is great small scale pvp, however SHB had a better iteration for large scale pvp and shatter wasnt an issue as it is now

[PangTong]

I've given the new Shatter a fair shot now, 15 games or so, and I think I can confidently say now that it's inferior to the previous iteration.

The smaller map, reduced points from ice, and no bases, has made the mode EXTREMELY kills-focused. While in other modes, you sometimes see comebacks and close games because of how teams play around the objectives, in the new Shatter, typically the most aggressive team gets a runaway lead and wins easily. Premades are already pretty dominant but the new Shatter takes it to another level, with teams facing a premade having virtually no hope of victory. The snowballing effect of Battle High and the incredible point potential of kills causes aggressive teams to dominate this mode in every single aspect.

Due to the low value of objectives compared to kills, teams which prioritize objectives almost always end up losing. Usually objectives give teams an idea of where to focus their efforts, but in the new Shatter the optimal approach is to outright ignore objectives to instead focus on kills. The typical Frontlines player is easily distracted by objectives, particularly in this mode as it allows them to avoid fighting other players (something which they are deathly scared of), yet counterintuitively this works to their team's detriment. By splitting off from their team's main force to attack ice, they diminish their killing ability and leave their team open to attacks from larger forces. All those points they think they're earning by diligently smashing ice are quickly siphoned away by aggressive teams killing their teammates and hastening their defeat.

I initially thought the mode was more fair with the more frequent ice spawns, but the spawns are not distributed evenly. Each large ice gives an advantage to one team, the one which has a slope from the ice leading to their base. The other teams must risk being pinched by entering from the cliffside or the center, leaving them only one viable exit. This wouldn't be a problem if the ice spawned evenly, but frequently it spawns in the same spot repeatedly, advantaging the same team over and over. So the map is arguably less fair than the previous iteration where each ice could only spawn once.


The fix for this isn't simple or obvious. The value of objectives vs killing needs to be balanced, and the way nodes work needs to be adjusted so that players cannot simply hide away and peck at ice all game without ever needing to PvP. Fewer ice active at once, less frequent spawns, higher point value of nodes. Hmm, this is starting to sound familiar. Kinda sounds like how the old map used to work.

Yeah, just go back to the old map. The new one isn't worth the work it would require to salvage when they could just bring back the original and solve basically every problem immediately. I'm not even sure why they changed it.

[Valence]

I disagree that ShB FLs was better. It was the same zerg fiesta, with other OP jobs and toxic combos. People just don't want to remember that.

Also it might depend of the datacenters people play on, I don't see much of those infamous 3 DRG/DRK combos where I play... Most people seem to play what they like.

[AnnRam]

Every single match feels the same

90% of your teammates are near the respawn camping small ices, never leaving the base, not even pvping at this point.



Most of the time I end up alone trying to pinch or interrupt the TF's between the other two alliances, absolutely horrible map I truly hate it.

[Knot_D]

I don't like the Big Ice on the corner, because if you decided to jump through the cliff for Big Ice on the corner, there's chance you get sandwiched by 2 GCs, unlike old Shatter's map where you can escape easily...

[Luluna]

I don't like the Big Ice on the corner, because if you decided to jump through the cliff for Big Ice on the corner, there's chance you get sandwiched by 2 GCs, unlike old Shatter's map where you can escape easily...

I agree and it is annoying trying to look for a fast escape but you know if you jump down and the other teams know what they are doing you are cornered >.< I would like that to be fixed. I am not enjoying the new shatter as much it just feels boring.