Please stop inserting unbranching combos in new jobs

[Rongway]

A lot of msq duties already showed that condensing a 3 button combo into 1 button can be done

The MSQ duties use single button combos because you can't expect every player who plays through the MSQ to know how to play every single job so that they can finish the story. For real jobs, the devs expect players to know enough basics not to press buttons out of order.

[UkcsAlias]

The MSQ duties use single button combos because you can't expect every player who plays through the MSQ to know how to play every single job so that they can finish the story. For real jobs, the devs expect players to know enough basics not to press buttons out of order.

Most duties barely even use 5 buttons. With a 123 that would be 7 buttons. That should be easily managable on its own.

But that wasnt my statement anyway, I only said that it shows it CAN be done. Not that it should. And that it can enables some flexibility in the combo systems for jobs. And its not even that strange anyway to have, note that dancer already has 8 double purpose buttons (normal use, and dancing). For dancer they even can combo into each other.

Double purpose buttons are a very efficient way of compacting abilities, and can themselve also feature more. And some jobs would definitely benefit from some of these features.

[Taranok]

The MSQ duties use single button combos because you can't expect every player who plays through the MSQ to know how to play every single job so that they can finish the story. For real jobs, the devs expect players to know enough basics not to press buttons out of order.

True or not, 3-step combos that don't branch could, and should, be reduced to 1 button if for no other reason than condensing bar space. If they want classes to have as many superfluous buttons as SAM or BLM have, nevermind AST or PLD, they need to condense redundant buttons down, and the best place is just to make 3-step combos 1 button. For most classes it wouldn't even make it harder or easier to play, it's just about not having useless buttons.

After that it's mostly about getting rid of redundant buttons like Shoha/Shoha 2, Foul/Xenoglossy. Basically mutually exclusive skills that have a single target and AoE version of what is otherwise an identical skill. But button bloat is another problem unto itself.

[CelestiCer]

True or not, 3-step combos that don't branch could, and should, be reduced to 1 button if for no other reason than condensing bar space. If they want classes to have as many superfluous buttons as SAM or BLM have, nevermind AST or PLD, they need to condense redundant buttons down, and the best place is just to make 3-step combos 1 button. For most classes it wouldn't even make it harder or easier to play, it's just about not having useless buttons.

Hard Disagree here. Specially when it comes to a Job " I play " that you don't.

First buttons to save up for SAM would be...

• Fusing Shoha I and Shoha II with fall off damage
• Fusing Guren and Senei with fall off damage
• Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri

This saves 3 buttons before we ever consider Combo Button compression ( And what should have taken prio over Kaiten removal ) as this changes nothing about the difficulty/execution of our rotation. Leave everything else alone until they present me something better to replace whatever anyone is suggesting to remove.

This... idiotic concept... of suggesting to remove something to make room for something better in the foreseeable future? is imbecilic. My Kaiten got deleted April 12th, 2022 patch 6.1... for over a year replaced with " Nothing better ". Am I to expect any better when my Combo buttons get reduced to a singular button? Wait another year or two cause we made room for something new? that's rich.

The way I define " Button Bloat ", is when I require macro's or special equipment to play a class or job. Even before Kaiten removal? I had zero issues with SAM execution. Although SAM's non-existing Button Bloat issue, is another topic.

[Taranok]

Hard Disagree here. Specially when it comes to a Job " I play " that you don't.

First buttons to save up for SAM would be...

• Fusing Shoha I and Shoha II with fall off damage
• Fusing Guren and Senei with fall off damage
• Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri

This saves 3 buttons before we ever consider Combo Button compression ( And what should have taken prio over Kaiten removal ) as this changes nothing about the difficulty/execution of our rotation. Leave everything else alone until they present me something better to replace whatever anyone is suggesting to remove.

This... idiotic concept... of suggesting to remove something to make room for something better in the foreseeable future? is imbecilic. My Kaiten got deleted April 12th, 2022 patch 6.1... for over a year replaced with " Nothing better ". Am I to expect any better when my Combo buttons get reduced to a singular button? Wait another year or two cause we made room for something new? that's rich.

The way I define " Button Bloat ", is when I require macro's or special equipment to play a class or job. Even before Kaiten removal? I had zero issues with SAM execution. Although SAM's non-existing Button Bloat issue, is another topic.

Samurai has branching combos. Why the hell are you responding to me? I was referring to Warrior, DRK, GNB, PLD, RPR. SAM has 3 separate branched combos, of course they shouldn't be 1 button.

Also don't forget combining Ikishoten with Guren. You have 4 damned 2 minute cooldowns that are used simultaneously under almost all scenarios. You can combine those 6 buttons into 2 and lose absolutely nothing of value by just having ikishoten get merged with Guren, which was merged with Senei, which turns into Ogi Namakure. 4 buttons for the cost of 1 oGCD.

[fulminating]

Samurai has branching combos. Why the hell are you responding to me? I was referring to Warrior, DRK, GNB, PLD, RPR. SAM has 3 separate branched combos, of course they shouldn't be 1 button.
.

Warrior has branching combos though?

[Deo14]

Warrior has branching combos though?

PLD had that too just a few months ago when he still got the balls and wasn't a Tesco value Gunbreaker.

It's kinda sad that so much has been lost that people genuinely think that pruning that aspect would break the camel's back. That already happened years ago. lol

Camel is dead, we're just trying to delay the camel's burial.

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One of many problems with auto combo is that it's not even applicable to everyone. SAM could stay the same, but now RPR for example, who is already pretty barebones, has even less skills. No, they will not add more skills. Only time when they actually add something is at expansion release (2 skills usually) and occasionally they recycle old skill (Bulwark). They will not add anything to compensate for it.

So please, if someone wants auto combo, just download XIVCombo and leave others alone. It takes like 5 minutes to get plugins (according to my mum's friend's goldfish). Jobs are primitive enough, positionals and 1-2-3 are one of the last mechanics jobs have, asside from higher end optimalizations.

Also, if you're unironically using XIVCombo because of the infamous phrase "button bloat", consider checking your keybinds. There is no way that someone without physical handicap is unable to use keybinds for some ~30 buttons, half of which is situational/infrequent. Leveling and MSQ progression is super slow, no way that you can't get used to it after 300-500 hours. And if you really can't, then that's a you problem.

[Valence]

To be more clear on what I meant, is that my particular problem is with non branching combos. This means that:

1) Combos that are always 1-2-3 are bland and as a design could be combined into one pvp button. I don't mind if they do this if for once we get something in return, like interesting other buttons and mechanics that prove more intricate than this baby sequence.
2) Combos that still branch are fine by me. I never liked combos much, but I don't hate those and they at least provide choice and decisions to make.

[Shurrikhan]

This... idiotic concept... of suggesting to remove something to make room for something better in the foreseeable future? is imbecilic.

Putting aside that Taranok was referring specifically to combos like that of modern DRK and PLD (no more CD-less Goring Blade) and had already suggested the exact same kinds of consolidations that you later did...

getting rid of redundant buttons like Shoha/Shoha 2, Foul/Xenoglossy. Basically mutually exclusive skills that have a single target and AoE version of what is otherwise an identical skill. But button bloat is another problem unto itself.

...you can still have button-mobile gameplay even in consolidated combos... if we just stopped fetishizing (clear/obvious/forcibly) non-choices as if they were actual depth.

For instance, to take an old concept floating around from Stormblood, imagine if Dragoon simply had 3 buttons around which to "combo" in any of varying paths. At any given GCD step, until you complete the combo, you have access to...
A. a Surge skill,
B. a Flurry skill,
C. and a Stream skill.

First GCD / "Opener":
A - True Thrust (+% Potency Bonus, lingering for the whole combo or fixed duration)
B - Impulse Drive (+Potency per hit, flat, lingering for the whole combo or fixed duration)
C - Doom Spike (+Applies flat Armor reduction)

Second GCD / "Bridge":
A - Vorpal Thrust (Has bonus Suppression; multi-hits)
B - Disembowel (Has Armor reduction)
C - Sonic Thrust (Separate hits, therefore scaling well with flat potency bonuses)

Third GCD / "Finisher":
A - Full Thrust (Just a single big damn hit)
B - Chaos Thrust (DoT, with individual ticks therefore scaling about evenly with % or flat bonuses, in total; multi-hits)
C - [Coerthan Torment] (Magic damage, not affected by Armor)

Wheeling Thrust [two-strikes, the latter being a radial AoE] and Fang and Claw [now two strikes, with short, narrow linear AoEs with falloff] could then be held and would duplicate a portion of the prior finisher (CT duration stacking up to 30s). WT's the AoE portion of which then scales better with flat potency increases after CT.

Yes, Full Thrust will scale best off True Thrust and Sonic Thrust better off Impulse or Doom Spike, such that you ultimately just have 5-6 combos with best in-practice use cases, especially in sustained rotation... but that's still a lot better than 6 out of 7 GCD skills being effectively greyed out for 9 out of 10 GCDs in single-target combat.

And you could build off that base, too, to eventually have the individual skills influence what skills follow for fully conditional branching paths instead of paths based on synergies, etc., etc.
__________

Having fewer buttons doesn't have to mean any significant amount less button-movement, and very often forces greater total nuance. Of course, we wouldn't have ended up in a situation where consolidation would even look feasible if the devs hadn't mistaken button count (and its non-choice bloat tools like AoE|ST pairs) for our actual moment-to-moment gameplay or decision-making.

While I don't think there's any added gameplay value to be had in mere XIVCombo or PvP-style consolidation (though I wouldn't begrudge that becoming an option just for QoL, given slight accordant adjustments to those using redundant keys for parity), a rework of the game's "combos" (which are... not remotely combinations, but instead merely inflexible multi-button sequences for singular actions, akin to more constrained/bloated mudras) seems a very lucrative design space.