Samurai LB is still BS

[hexxxx]

Oh me, oh my, would you look at this...
Ways to survive SAM LB in PVP (Assuming you're at Max HP)

Tanks:
PLD - Shelltron or Hallowed (12k potency shield / Immunity)
WAR - Bloodwhetting (10% HP shield)
GNB - Tank Junction Powder Combo (15k potency shield)
DRK - Blackest Night or Eventide (8k potency shield / Immunity)

Melee:
NIN - Huton (16k potency shield)
MNK - Thunderclap (6k potency shield)
SAM - Ogi Namikiri or Kaeshi: Namikiri (8k potency shield on 2 target hits for both hits)
DRG - Sky Shatter (24k potency shield)
RPR - Crest (12k potency shield)

Ranged:
MCH - Bishop Turret (6k potency shield)
BRD - dead; Bind and pray
DNC - Honing Ovation (5k potency shield at max stacks)

Magic:
BLM - Burst (16k potency shield)
RDM - White Shift Melee Combo (18k potency shield)
SMN - Radiant Aegis (10k potency shield)

Healer:
WHM - Aquaveil (8k potency shield)
AST - Double Cast Benefic (4k potency shield)
SCH - Adlo and Seraphic Veil (6k potency shield or 4k potency shield)
SGE - Eukrasian Dosis (8k potency shield)

[Valence]

Hi. I played SAM a few times and even got to Plat before!

Each job has 6 unique buttons. PvP is meant to be simple and it's with these tools that every job has reasonable counters to SAM LB. It's only hard to counter in a vacuum if you're trying to cover a mistaken proc against chiten. Mistakes, fairly, should get punished. But if you throw a cast against a SAM from range as a SMN and immediately throw on an Aegis, that's one way to bait out a 2 minute LB for effect. You all should know this, even if not all counters are as obvious as PLD/DRK/SGE LBs. Some of you even touch on the fact that shield actions left on CD are a waste (unless you're planning to counter because you see their LB gauge is up!)

No one should get to expect a free escape from a Zanny when they have half health just because they still have a defensive available. Seto seems to be the only one to understand that MCH turret is AMAZING against SAMs for example. It doesn't give Kazushi to the MCH when it ticks AND it increases the target's damage taken, which is a great COUNTER against chiten's mitigation. Unless you're only playing Casual matches with people who are still learning how to play, a SAM with the MCH turret debuff should get bursted to death asap by the team even through chiten.(25% mit isn't that much even before turret debuff)

Not one job is helpless against its LB and it sure isn't free for taking 2 minutes to charge. It's a fun job with a lot of nuance in how well it plays at each level. I'll tell you this much as well. If someone hit a SAM with chiten up and die afterward to Zan, they made 2 mistakes. One is that they hit the wrong target with their mitigation up, and the second is that they weren't ready for it. The chump messed up and earned that death twice over.

Feels bad because played bad. Tell them to get over it and do better.

Hard disagree because you're literally throwing a strawman. Nobody said jobs are helpless vs Zantetsuken (or at least, I haven't).

The real problem with people in those forums is that they love their talk in a vacuum, when in reality it always boils down to a matter of balance vs actual effort to deploy. In essence, this means that the more cumbersome something is to pull off, the lesser it's going to happen successfully, especially if pit against something that isn't. Now then, I play SAM casually and I don't think Zantetsuken is that easy to pull especially against skilled players, much like baiting good SAMs is easier said than done, they're not stupid either. But the amount of effort and specific circumstances to pull in order to survive a Zantetsuken with a big fat kuzuchi on you is not exactly a trifle, and requires you to have full HP, a shield that's not been chipped already, and the ability to survive after losing 95% of your life. On top of it, it also requires to find a proper location to bait it, which is easier said than done, and will sometimes just clip your whole team in the process.

I however main MCH at crystal level and I can safely tell you that you're dreaming if you think a MCH turret will save anybody eating a Zantestsuken for the simple reason that the shield gets clipped most of the time by the ongoing AoE damage everybody gets, and if it doesn't kill someone outright, they sure will die from enemies picking them up anyway. At best it's good for little skirmishes or duels, but odds are that if you're pulling this against a melee DPS as a MCH, you're seriously asking to be killed anyway.

[doomballoon]

Hard disagree because you're literally throwing a strawman. Nobody said jobs are helpless vs Zantetsuken (or at least, I haven't).

The real problem with people in those forums is that they love their talk in a vacuum, when in reality it always boils down to a matter of balance vs actual effort to deploy. In essence, this means that the more cumbersome something is to pull off, the lesser it's going to happen successfully, especially if pit against something that isn't. Now then, I play SAM casually and I don't think Zantetsuken is that easy to pull especially against skilled players, much like baiting good SAMs is easier said than done, they're not stupid either. But the amount of effort and specific circumstances to pull in order to survive a Zantetsuken with a big fat kuzuchi on you is not exactly a trifle, and requires you to have full HP, a shield that's not been chipped already, and the ability to survive after losing 95% of your life. On top of it, it also requires to find a proper location to bait it, which is easier said than done, and will sometimes just clip your whole team in the process.

I however main MCH at crystal level and I can safely tell you that you're dreaming if you think a MCH turret will save anybody eating a Zantestsuken for the simple reason that the shield gets clipped most of the time by the ongoing AoE damage everybody gets, and if it doesn't kill someone outright, they sure will die from enemies picking them up anyway. At best it's good for little skirmishes or duels, but odds are that if you're pulling this against a melee DPS as a MCH, you're seriously asking to be killed anyway.

You just did the same thing, sweetheart. I wasn't even speaking to you directly. You also only seem to disagree with the viability of certain jobs' ability to counter Zan. It SHOULD be hard for MCH to cover themselves for SAM lb because they do so much damage at range. Turret is an excellent shielding tool against SAM lb because it 'pulses' -this means it reapplies shields to the party even if they are cleaved. It's not a full-stop safety against SAM lb but it really shouldn't be without being an LB itself and has saved a great number of players from getting dropped when they should've been. Turret is one of the single best defensive and offensive cooldown tools in CC, hands down.

PS: For those MCH's at Crystal level struggling to reach t100, stop using Turret as a zoning tool during openers. It's a meme and just identifies you as an easy target <3

[RyuuZero]

I disagree, Samurai is a god forspoken Kaitenless Shinten Spammer in PvE.
PvP is the Last Bastion for the Samurai to resemble a Fun Job and the Instant Kill LB is just a Part of it. I had it alot of times where I debuff trigger lb'd someone and only cut down like 70% HP that's supposed to be an instaKill. on CC I once witnessed a 5men kill from an Enemy Samurai and I wasn't even mad

[Valence]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying SAM LB should be nerfed or buffed, it's underwhelming at higher level, but it will still ask people to bite the bullet in the opposing team to get rid of it. I'd however be in favor of changing it into a non one shot KO ability with a wider line AOE, still based on kuzushi boosting its damage and allowing a guard bypass. That would probably shut down most of the current complaints, especially from low level players.

You just did the same thing, sweetheart. I wasn't even speaking to you directly. You also only seem to disagree with the viability of certain jobs' ability to counter Zan. It SHOULD be hard for MCH to cover themselves for SAM lb because they do so much damage at range. Turret is an excellent shielding tool against SAM lb because it 'pulses' -this means it reapplies shields to the party even if they are cleaved. It's not a full-stop safety against SAM lb but it really shouldn't be without being an LB itself and has saved a great number of players from getting dropped when they should've been. Turret is one of the single best defensive and offensive cooldown tools in CC, hands down.

PS: For those MCH's at Crystal level struggling to reach t100, stop using Turret as a zoning tool during openers. It's a meme and just identifies you as an easy target <3

1) Please enlighten me how I'm talking in a vacuum? "no u" is not an argument
2) I don't care if you were not talking to me. I'm reacting to what you wrote on a public forum, you're free to ignore it.
3) I disagree with most jobs ability to counter Zantetsuken, and not just some, as explained already because defensives are not made to be sat on until the enemy SAM deigns use their LB. If one sits on defensives for minutes long, the SAM already wins by that alone if 5 players in the opposing team does so. It eliminates already a lot of jobs from the pool, except perhaps a few like SMN.
4) You're not reading what I'm writing. If you deploy a turret in a team engagement to prevent a SAM from LBing it supposes a lot of factors to be met: first it needs to be preemptive and not reactive because of the turret deployment time, which means the SAM can just choose to sit on their LB and delay their Chiten. Second, even if it pulses, getting one's HP being reduced to 6k (at best) will literally mean a death most of the time if the opposing team (at least at high level) is not sleeping on their keyboards. I do not consider surviving a Zantetsuken with 3k HP left "surviving it" considering what's gonna happen in the couple of seconds that follow. I've personally never seen a turret save anybody from Sam LB in a big engagement, so I'll chalk this down to different experiences I guess. Unless you're speaking of smaller skirmishes where you're trying to save an ally from it, perhaps.
5) There is actual MCHs still deploying the turret in the void like gold players do during openers at crystal level on NA? lol

[Llynethil]

are you serious? have you never played machinist? this is one of the singularly worst comments on this thread and advice no one should follow.

How the hell is turret gonna save you from sam lb, you'll be dead before the first pulse even activated, and if somehow you survive then you get hit by one basic attack and are dead, you're better off trying to shotgun or buffed air anchor for the cc and try and los.
Turret is a waste of a gc, better off doing cc to prevent it from going out, or throw a drill or something out so he can be easily bursted by the surviving teammates.

[TiraMsu]

How the hell is turret gonna save you from sam lb, you'll be dead before the first pulse even activated, and if somehow you survive then you get hit by one basic attack and are dead, you're better off trying to shotgun or buffed air anchor for the cc and try and los.
Turret is a waste of a gc, better off doing cc to prevent it from going out, or throw a drill or something out so he can be easily bursted by the surviving teammates.

The whole point of this thread was surviving SAM lb, not delaying it. And off of that idea is the concept of baiting SAM lb, which is super high value if you can do that and survive. Removing SAM lb instead of just delaying it by ko'ing the player (only to have that player respawn with lb) takes a lot of pressure off of you and your teammates and can be game-changing in higher-level play. Not to mention the fact that making you/teammates survive SAM lb makes it so that instead of having the sam lb be a one-shot skill, it becomes a skill that requires follow-up (and SAM lb has animation lock).

TURRET DOES NOT PROC CHITEN'S DEBUFF.

Putting down turret is NEVER a waste of a gcd, unless your turret placement is bad. Players should be using turret on cooldown because of the sheer amount of value both you and your teammates get out of it. If your ability as a Machinist is hampered by taking that 1 gcd to use a skill that has good personal and team benefit, then that speaks more to player ability than anything else.

[Llynethil]

If you cc a sam and los him, you just survived the sam lb because the debuff will be gone when he gets los back, which is far better then trying to turret and die anyway because the shield either didn't come up fast enough, or you die anyway because you're left with 6k hp which is nothing.

I KNOW IT DOESN'T DEBUFF THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

You AIN'T surviving a sam lb as machinist with that crap shield period unless you're fighting in FL maybe then ye your point is valid, now your team is down to 4 and prob loses ground because of it, how the hell is that a better situation then los the sam, then kill him and gain ground meanwhile, and when he returns, be more carefull and bait out the chiten instead of the actual debuff then kill him again.

In what world is facetanking that lb a better option than just cc and los then removing the sam from the field, you gonna facetank as a machinist every 120s?

And yes turret is good in general, but NOT vs sam lb when you got debuffed.

[TiraMsu]

If you cc a sam and los him, you just survived the sam lb because the debuff will be gone when he gets los back, which is far better then trying to turret and die anyway because the shield either didn't come up fast enough, or you die anyway because you're left with 6k hp which is nothing.

I KNOW IT DOESN'T DEBUFF THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

You AIN'T surviving a sam lb as machinist with that crap shield period unless you're fighting in FL maybe then ye your point is valid, now your team is down to 4 and prob loses ground because of it, how the hell is that a better situation then los the sam, then kill him and gain ground meanwhile, and when he returns, be more carefull and bait out the chiten instead of the actual debuff then kill him again.

In what world is facetanking that lb a better option than just cc and los then removing the sam from the field, you gonna facetank as a machinist every 120s?

And yes turret is good in general, but NOT vs sam lb when you got debuffed.

let me ask you this. how much CC have you played as MCH? in light party? in casuals? in ranked? because i have played and won thousands of ranked games as a machinist and have also played machinist in casuals and light party. i have experience playing and winning with this class and have successfully baited SAM lb with machinist turret MANY TIMES. so i can say your comment that it's a "crap shield" is objectively misguided at best. any shield that lets you survive a SAM lb isn't crap imo, and again, just because you can't do something doesn't invalidate it as an effective tool.

your mindset for cc play is the issue. you think in terms of micro instead of macro play. of course it's situationally important to consider whether your team comp is heavily reliant on aoe for bursts, but this entire game mode is about lb economy. let's say i followed your "recommended course of action" and cc and los the SAM - they then have 25 second cooldown on chiten, BUT THEY STILL HAVE A 25K POTENS AOE ATTACK ON DEMAND. so let's say their team members have forms of cc or an aoe stun (RPR, DNC, GNB, WHM) and your team members dont guard or have their guard broken. it doesn't matter that the SAM didnt get a chiten proc off any of those team members because 25k aoe on top of cleaves/dmg buffs (gnb)/etc, those multiple team members (which could have lbs or a slower lb regeneration than you) are ko'd. now if the SAM gets the chiten proc off and there aren't any of the mitigating techniques listed in the original post? that's even worse because the lb economy of the opposite team is in an even better position better than yours. 1 SAM lb in exchange for delaying the build of more than one player's lbs? that is never a good exchange for your team.

[TiraMsu]

If you cc a sam and los him, you just survived the sam lb because the debuff will be gone when he gets los back, which is far better then trying to turret and die anyway because the shield either didn't come up fast enough, or you die anyway because you're left with 6k hp which is nothing.

I KNOW IT DOESN'T DEBUFF THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

You AIN'T surviving a sam lb as machinist with that crap shield period unless you're fighting in FL maybe then ye your point is valid, now your team is down to 4 and prob loses ground because of it, how the hell is that a better situation then los the sam, then kill him and gain ground meanwhile, and when he returns, be more carefull and bait out the chiten instead of the actual debuff then kill him again.

In what world is facetanking that lb a better option than just cc and los then removing the sam from the field, you gonna facetank as a machinist every 120s?

And yes turret is good in general, but NOT vs sam lb when you got debuffed.

also, have you tried not getting debuffed? because turret not proccing chiten actually IS the point. as a machinist you are in a position where you have a skill that can deal damage and debuff your enemy/buff your team or self and then be able to sit there and not hit the SAM until their chiten wears off. if the idea of not hitting gcds makes you anxious, there are 4 other enemy combatants you could use single-target skills on in the meantime.