On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Lunaxia]

Hey, that was a good time! ...

It was! And incredibly satisfying to breach such a tasty subject usually off-limits in most places (criticising Emet-Selch sometimes feel akin to treading holy ground) to that degree of detail, but I always like to share in such opinions because it can be rare to find a like mind.

I've said I don't begrudge anyone who resents the Ascians for what they've done, or even just really hates them for who and what they are, but part of me feels you'd have to be a little cold-hearted to not think poor Eli was cutting a sad figure by the time we were well on our way to facing him, and the subsequent events surrounding our confrontation really made me feel like we were just kicking the puppy while he was down. He wasn't broken and had lost himself from a personal, Emet-Selch sort of standpoint, but he had completely collapsed in both mind and soul, and was unaware of having lost the very essence of who he was entirely. Peeling that back to see this grieving kid underneath trying to recover the scattered fragments and how it put a whole new slant on his mission to understand us and emulate us as a hero... like, he'd already given his life, his body and his mind at that point, and lost everything and everyone he held dear, can we give him a small break? It's okay to admit there are parts of the sundering that were a genuine tragedy, and it doesn't mean you condone the Ascians overall or the rejoinings.

His VA ended up a bit of a hilarious fit for the original Themis, but I'll be damned if that "My duty! No! Not yet!" line in SoS still doesn't pull at the heartstrings.

food for thought.

I find your assessment of Hyth here really interesting, not least because I wasn't a fan of his Elpis appearance but also for not choosing to automatically view him as a charitable and benevolent character, which we're sort of prone to do when it comes to the Ancients. And experiences since have shown that is far from always being the case!

I'm not sure I agree with "depressed", though, and I'm always a bit "eek"-y at applying IRL diagnoses to fictional characters. It doesn't play out well usually, and winds up being a bit of a disservice to the character most of the time.

[Denishia]

It was! And incredibly satisfying to breach such a tasty subject usually off-limits in most places (criticising Emet-Selch sometimes feel akin to treading holy ground) to that degree of detail, but I always like to share in such opinions because it can be rare to find a like mind.

I've said I don't begrudge anyone who resents the Ascians for what they've done, or even just really hates them for who and what they are, but part of me feels you'd have to be a little cold-hearted to not think poor Eli was cutting a sad figure by the time we were well on our way to facing him, and the subsequent events surrounding our confrontation really made me feel like we were just kicking the puppy while he was down. He wasn't broken and had lost himself from a personal, Emet-Selch sort of standpoint, but he had completely collapsed in both mind and soul, and was unaware of having lost the very essence of who he was entirely. Peeling that back to see this grieving kid underneath trying to recover the scattered fragments and how it put a whole new slant on his mission to understand us and emulate us as a hero... like, he'd already given his life, his body and his mind at that point, and lost everything and everyone he held dear, can we give him a small break? It's okay to admit there are parts of the sundering that were a genuine tragedy, and it doesn't mean you condone the Ascians overall or the rejoinings.

I'm exactly that person - I do disdain the Ascians and think Elidibus by 6.3 was a figure of pity precisely because there was tragedy in this young man who hollowed out everything that made him who he was and everything good in the name of his friends and ideals where what's left is this defiler of the genuine heroics the real Themis admired and doing so in a way that feels treacherous and sadistic. Elidibus the Primal is not emotionless, but there is something more like corrupted AI instead of actual person so as a villain I didn't despise him the way I did Emet. I didn't resent the game giving the WoL sadness and regret like I do the game's insistence that I should feel sorrow over Emet and ignore his role in Allag and Garlemald. Elidibus the zombie trying to continue Rejoining Plan that would not work, especially by 6.3, trying to murder entire worlds in the false belief that he can bring back a world that he doesn't even remember or have ties to except for a memory that a duty exists at all. So it becomes both necessity and relief to stop him and let his soul dissipate to join Venat as cosmic stardust free of the Wheel of Rebirth (or hope he's reborn as an Ondo. Which I'm really attached to this headcanon now, especially as Erichtonios should have a Shard on the First that had the Echo awoken by Elidi-Ardbert's stunt, and as Erichtonios is similar to Rue-Leeq he can be an Eulmorean adventurer. They can team-up and have adventures together.)

[SannaR]

I agree that Themis/Elidibus felt very awkwardly shoehorned into the present timeline Anabeisos - he worked in the first two tiers as the outside straight man and supportive friend for Erichtonios when the meaty core of this raid's story was the toxic familial history and relationships of the Lahabreas. It's why having the original plot MacGuffin crystal be a memory crystal of both Erichtonios and Lahabrea worked (and an interesting counterbalance to the Heart of Sabik as memory for Athena and Lahabrea). But the 6.3 fanservice fight and placing our conclusion scenes with Elibidus in the current day Source's Aetherial Sea instead of in the past or one the First as to keep the raid in just two locations required some painfully clunky 'Athena did it' handwaves and a memory Elidibus with a characterization that feels muddled.

Isn't that how Themis is? Muddled? Athena gives him muddled memories of anything outside the scope of Pandeamonium. During 5.3 his memories are muddled due to choosing to forget and being a primal that was summoned with as Y'shtola puts it a "cacophony of voices" muddied it further. Even when he's sending us back to Elpis his memories are still muddled. We don't even get an idea of who he is or what he's like until then really as for most of the game he's just there being bland as can be. It's not until we learn that he's a young man who looks up to his older colleagues with admiration with more aimed at Azem. A person who isn't jaded or cynical yet and doesn't seem to get that way until we kill Emet-Selch. Even then I'm not sure if he becomes that way because he's a primal that strives for the salvation of the star and how dare Emet-Selch go and go against the plan. Or if there is some of the old him creeping out. Maybe a mixture of both.

[SannaR]

Between this and your above assessment of him, I think you've misunderstood Hythlodaeus's character. He's pleasant, but if you pay attention to the way he behaves, he's obviously only motivated by his intense love for specific people and is otherwise largely apathetic to what's going on around him. When he's planning to have Emet-Selch train the charybdis, he expresses no compassion for the animal or even for Hermes, only how it will be neat if Emet does it and how it'll make him happy since he always likes playing the hero in the long term. And then during the rest of the Elpis, while Emet is trying to reach out to Hermes in his unconstructive tsundere way, Hythlo still shows virtually no interest in him and just worries about Emet's feelings being hurt. He's even low-key mean a couple times.

He's also pretty clearly depressed. He constantly puts himself down and negatively compares himself to his friends, and one of this revival quotes is even "You shouldn't have. No, really."

I think he's the most interestingly characterized NPC during the Elpis arc, even more so than Hermes, because so much is unspoken.

He probably also puts himself down due to how strong his two closest friends are. He's seen Emet's showboating form a few times. His other friend goes around occasionally fighting things all the time. I'm sure everyone on the convocation is able to hold their ground if need be. Yet he claims he's just as bad as Erichtonios when it comes to most things creative. It's hard to not feel or think that what you make is rubbish when your best friends are on the levels of Morgan Le Fay or an Achilles.

[Denishia]

Isn't that how Themis is? Muddled? Athena gives him muddled memories of anything outside the scope of Pandeamonium. During 5.3 his memories are muddled due to choosing to forget and being a primal that was summoned with as Y'shtola puts it a "cacophony of voices" muddied it further. Even when he's sending us back to Elpis his memories are still muddled. We don't even get an idea of who he is or what he's like until then really as for most of the game he's just there being bland as can be. It's not until we learn that he's a young man who looks up to his older colleagues with admiration with more aimed at Azem. A person who isn't jaded or cynical yet and doesn't seem to get that way until we kill Emet-Selch. Even then I'm not sure if he becomes that way because he's a primal that strives for the salvation of the star and how dare Emet-Selch go and go against the plan. Or if there is some of the old him creeping out. Maybe a mixture of both.

Anabaseios Elidibus is muddled like Primal 6.3 Elidibus but not exactly the same as Elidi-Primal. It's supposed to be Athena messing with him (and unfortunately there wasn't any space for in the limited confines of the raid but that Lahabrea, Erichtonios, and Elidibus were memories pasted over unconnected souls and nothing was done with the soul dissonance that should have caused strikes me as weird- just have them be pure memory constructs)- which is why it was weird that the 'closure for his character' ending scene is supposed to be the leftovers of what Athena snatched up from who knows where when it had been previously established that his aether was attached to the First's Crystal Tower and in use to power that teleport portal to Elpis. Unless what Athena pulled was some lingering remnant of Themis from Zodiark? Maybe when Elidibus the Primal separated from Zodiark the Primal some of Themis remained behind and that would have been released into the Source without crossing back and ferrying over into the Shard Lifestream by either Hydaelyn or Athena. The memory crystal for Elidibus that Lahabrea and Emet made but was never used wouldn't have solved the problem but was a plot coupon that the raid could have used to justify having Themis in his Ancient form for the Anabaseios portion.

[RyuDragnier]

Between this and your above assessment of him, I think you've misunderstood Hythlodaeus's character. He's pleasant, but if you pay attention to the way he behaves, he's obviously only motivated by his intense love for specific people and is otherwise largely apathetic to what's going on around him. When he's planning to have Emet-Selch train the charybdis, he expresses no compassion for the animal or even for Hermes, only how it will be neat if Emet does it and how it'll make him happy since he always likes playing the hero in the long term. And then during the rest of the Elpis, while Emet is trying to reach out to Hermes in his unconstructive tsundere way, Hythlo still shows virtually no interest in him and just worries about Emet's feelings being hurt. He's even low-key mean a couple times.

He's also pretty clearly depressed. He constantly puts himself down and negatively compares himself to his friends, and one of this revival quotes is even "You shouldn't have. No, really."

I think he's the most interestingly characterized NPC during the Elpis arc, even more so than Hermes, because so much is unspoken.

What I love most about this? It gives some reasoning for how Hyth, Emet, and Azem became friends. Hyth feels like he can't measure up to others and doesn't want people to worry about him, but at the same time wants them to succeed and do well. Emet comes across as somebody who has been hurt before (thus his attitude), but genuinely does care about others. This leaves Azem. While not much can be said about them, due to their inability to sit still and how they explore the world, I think they have a combination of genuine curiosity for the world and a Death Seeker vibe to them. They're not just fighting to help people (though that's likely a big thing for them)...they're looking for someone or something to kill them in battle. The Ancients do seem to come across as having a Martyrdom Culture.

Meaning Emet worries about Hyth and Azem, Hyth genuinely wants Emet and Azem to be well, and Azem...wants everybody to be happy.

[Brinne]

Hythlo

Occasionally, when I see people sort of frame Hythlodaeus as some moral figure who would clearly disapprove or be outraged with Emet-Selch's actions as an Ascian, my reaction is basically "...what?" Because no. There's absolutely no way. Hythlodaeus is not malicious by any means, and all things being equal will generally do the benevolent thing, as he has no interest in hurting anyone excessively or pointlessly, but he makes crystal clear what he truly cares about and what he doesn't, and his pleasant polite quality is just as much as him also having no energy or interest in meaningfully engaging with anyone who isn't Azem or Emet-Selch beyond that "polite" surface level. He's an incredibly interesting character to me, and the dynamic of, once again, Hades perhaps being the figure in the friendship trio with the most pronounced morals and sense of empathy, and this in fact being the very thing that basically drove him to sink as low as he did, makes all of them all the more interesting and tragic.

In a way, I agree with Yoshi-P's assessment that Hythlo is in fact the "scariest" Ancient, though I entirely disagree with his reasoning behind it, but that comes down to finding the reasons Yoshi-P presumed the audience would find the Ancients "scary" as a whole generally laughable.

His VA ended up a bit of a hilarious fit for the original Themis, but I'll be damned if that "My duty! No! Not yet!" line in SoS still doesn't pull at the heartstrings.

The English voice casting obviously was done out of not knowing how Elidibus's true character would eventually manifest, but also, I will instantly piledrive anyone who says a word against Matt Stokoe and I can't tell you how immeasurably overjoyed I was that they managed to get him back in this patch. If Themis ever makes another return, if Stokoe doesn't come with him for voiced scenes, rioting from me will ensue.

[Iedarus]

Gimme that alt timeline. I don't care if it doesn't hit as hard.

Please, no more Marvel multiverse garbage. We already lost a potentially good game out of Bayonetta 3 because of it. Let a story retain consequences.

[Brinne]

Please, no more Marvel multiverse garbage. We already lost a potentially good game out of Bayonetta 3 because of it. Let a story retain consequences.

I mean, it's already happened. That's a factor in the contention: it's already established to be possible and have happened, but the emotional catharsis and acceptability of this expansion's writing largely depends on desperately hoping we just pretend it isn't and hasn't, even though it was the very crux of just the prior expansion's plot.

It just gets even moreso when you examine it further and recognize how it falls into the pattern where a multiverse is acceptable and even considered good and heroic to weave, but on the condition that it's to the benefit of the player/Warrior of Light, as usual. Anyone else is stuck "accepting their tragic fate" and prioritizing reducing so much as mere emotional consequences to the WoL as much as possible.

[Tehmon]

I think the ancient world and different timelines of XIV (and the nebulous, enigmatic figure that is Azem) have some good potential and great material for a single player spinoff story outside of XIV. I would love exploring a fully rejoined Source of the 8UC timeline, especially if you could do it as Azem somehow, because I want to O-B-L-I-T-E-R-A-T-E Emet-Selch emotionally.