On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[RyuDragnier]

As usual, a pretty good insight by Anonymoose on things. I missed your posts so much.

[Anonymoose]

This seems a very reductive and, honestly, disingenuous characterization of the reasons many people have elaborated on why they have a problem with the story writing.

If it's "reductive and disingenuous" to say that of your experience or ones you think have solid supports, is it also possible that I wasn't referring to your experience or that perspective in that line? It's not a black-and-white claim that goes for everyone who didn't like the way Endwalker went and every reason they gave for that. That's not how a diverse community of perspectives works; I know that. Is it also possible that I based that phrasing on another perspective that was shared with me? Or no one specific personal perspective at all, but my personal experience of which posts tended to send the discussion spiraling off in more destructive directions?

And that goes just as much for some of their opponents, who said things like, "the ancients were awful and deserved it and Venat was right to want to do it" which is...not very supportable, either, in my opinion. It doesn't mean I paint everyone who likes where Endwalker went with that brush. I likewise don't think every post that doesn't share my perspective is "It wasn't what I wanted so it's bad" just because I think some do, either. I'm not trying to paint one as the other or be reductive but if you'd like to write me off on that assumption, I can't stop you. I'm entitled to my perspectives, and you yours, even on that.

But I think different perspectives make a community better every bit as much as I think treating people rudely and hating on the product doesn't. If we like the game, and like talking about the game, it stands to reason that we should try to avoid things that make that miserable.

What about the rest of the post(s)? Does any of that offer counter-perspective to that of the people you think have good reasons to have problems with the story? Maybe those parts are better to assume relate to their experiences. Can those be discarded, in your opinion, using other quotes and scenes as seen through different lenses/perspectives/interpretations? I have my own perspective and miss things that others pick up on all the time.

That sounds constructive and fun to engage with, imho.

Uh huh.

This, less so, imho.


ADDENDUM:
A few of the replies to the Lore Q&A announcement getting nuked for toxicity over in community events right now are definitely the kind of posts I was referring to, however.

I missed your posts so much.

[GoofyBlush.jpg] So I was focusing on school and couldn't play or post much, and then all of a sudden - like The Force coming into balance - some toxic people supporting the Light rose to get into bad-faith arguments with the toxic people supporting the Dark, and every single thread stopped being what I'm used to ("This is my perspective and how I support it." / "I'd counter with this, which I noticed due to my perspective." / "How are you interpreting this line? Shouldn't it undermine your perspective?") and started being ... <starts making sound effects with his mouth: explosions, screeching, blows landing, swords clanging, in the distance ... sirens> and it felt hopeless. You only have so many hours in the day, why spend it being unhappy in a place dedicated to being happy about the thing that makes you happy with other people it makes happy? But it looks like a lot of those quit the game and/or otherwise cleared out, so I'll give The Old Ways a shot again. Wish me luck! lol

[Brinne]

If it's "reductive and disingenuous" to say that of your experience or ones you think have solid supports, is it also possible that I wasn't referring to your experience or that perspective in that line? It's not a black-and-white claim that goes for everyone who didn't like the way Endwalker went and every reason they gave for that.

Possible, sure, but not exactly actually present in what was written, especially when the framing was how very sympathetic you are towards those dissatisfied with the story for thread-unrelated reasons.

But if you're clarifying it now, sure. Acknowledged!

[Anonymoose]

But if you're clarifying it now, sure. Acknowledged!

I will do my best to not do any lumping or broad brushing, and apologize if it seems at any time like that's happening when I refer to a sub-section of a larger perspective. The sundering is a great example of a topic that makes preventing this difficult, actually. There's a trend of "if you believe this, you must believe that" that paints the whole thing as a false binary with only two camps. I'm more, "Here's the big picture I see (perspectives and interpretations). Here are the scenes and quotes that build it (supports). What are yours?" Again, I apologize if at any point my frustration with the "my perspective means you can't read and the game sucks" approach is being applied over-broadly to people who aren't doing that, this ain't about the others, lol.

As far as "thread-unrelated", though, let me try to phrase it a bit better to make it more thread-specific rather than referring over-generally to a trend going back a while on a variety of topics.

I still think that some positions, based on the way they're presented and the supports provided, read a lot like, "Events A, B, and C happened back in Patch X, and I interpreted them as meaning Y because that fit with my perspective." So far, so good.

But then that interpretation didn't pan out as fitting into the story as SE decided to tell it. A, B, and C didn't mean to imply Y. They actually were intended to to fit with Z.

But what if Events A, B, and C - interpreted as meaning Z - jibe just fine, from another perspective?

There are people who would say, "I thought my perspective had support that it didn't end up having, and that really sucks." I am, indeed, very sympathetic to that. We've all had that happen to us. We made meaning of a story and connected to it and it turned out to be a different story than we thought. Who wouldn't be disappointed?

But there also people who would ignore (or dismiss) that, from some perspectives that are not their own, there's nothing terribly inconsistent about A, B, and C with SE's chosen path of Z, and continue to take it for granted that they were right that, back then, A, B and C = Y, and so therefore the game is inconsistent and wrong and badly written and the writers have done them a grave disservice.

I don't think that's a fair thing to say 100% of the times that's been said - including in this thread - in my opinion.

[Brinne]

As far as "thread-unrelated", though, let me try to phrase it a bit better to make it more thread-specific rather than referring over-generally to a trend going back a while on a variety of topics.

So, from your perspective, is it even possible for there to ever be a legitimate complaint about a part of the story being inconsistent, morally dissonant, or simply badly written, or do you think it always comes down to someone essentially either misreading or having sour grapes (that you are very, very sympathetic to)?

[Anonymoose]

So, from your perspective, is it even possible for there to ever be a legitimate complaint about a part of the story being inconsistent, morally dissonant, or simply badly written, or do you think it always comes down to someone essentially either misreading or having sour grapes (that you are very, very sympathetic to)?

I don't see how it wouldn't be. Though "ever" is an absolute term, so it's kind of a low bar to clear. And "inconsistent" is partially a matter of the perspectives you're willing and able to see and which you're not, so a bad-faith actor could never clear even that low bar. And the continued - what seems to me like - deliberate condescension and mocking tone from your end suggests that I'd labor to convince you that this is my position in the first place.

There are lots of times people say, "How could SE say A, B, and C and it be weird to land on an interpretation of Y?" or "How could SE say A, B, and C and expect us to land on Z?" that are very well supported. Some of those are in this tread, too, imho. Of course it's "possible". I just don't think that negates the possibility of the opposite happening. Again, I don't really think anything is that black and white.

But if all you're going to do is call me insincere and disingenuous and mock me for saying I'm sympathetic to some people who are disappointed, are you deconstructing my perspective and interpretation? Are you building up an alternative? Are you doing anything that supports having fun enjoying and talking about FFXIV? I don't understand - why waste the time and energy on me?

[Brinne]

I don't see how it wouldn't be.

Well, okay then. That settles that.

[TowaIsBestGirl]

Well, okay then. That settles that.

Not a very common occurrence around here, from what I've seen so far is it. For such things to be tied up so neatly, complete with little elaborate bow.

[Cleretic]

The worst part of the 'legitimate complaints' around here is that they're so fervent and so prone to attacks that it doesn't feel safe or possible to talk about the actual game.

Have the issues you have, and air them if you want, but don't stomp on the people who just want to enjoy things and talk about the game we all played.

[Rannie]

[GoofyBlush.jpg] So I was focusing on school and couldn't play or post much, and then all of a sudden - like The Force coming into balance - some toxic people supporting the Light rose to get into bad-faith arguments with the toxic people supporting the Dark, and every single thread stopped being what I'm used to ("This is my perspective and how I support it." / "I'd counter with this, which I noticed due to my perspective." / "How are you interpreting this line? Shouldn't it undermine your perspective?") and started being ... <starts making sound effects with his mouth: explosions, screeching, blows landing, swords clanging, in the distance ... sirens> and it felt hopeless. You only have so many hours in the day, why spend it being unhappy in a place dedicated to being happy about the thing that makes you happy with other people it makes happy? But it looks like a lot of those quit the game and/or otherwise cleared out, so I'll give The Old Ways a shot again. Wish me luck! lol

This a main reason why I've stopped posting (as if i posted much on lore to begin with to be one of the top lore afficionado like you) as much or at all on the lore forums.... I'll still do some goofy posts on General discussion but that has gotten really bad lately. Not the school part just the whole hack and forth and oh my God the name calling and just bs...