On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

[Brinne]

Doesn't strike me as a situation where someone was being judged on their ability to march to the party's drumbeat.

I mean, the attempted framing does fit into the pattern we see of trying to squash the Ancients as some generalized entity into those boxes of "cold" and "scary" to make us understand the judgment that they, as a race and civilization, Had To Go - even though that completely falls apart in two seconds if you actually examine them and what they express - which is a wide, diverse, fascinating range of personalities and perspectives within the context they exist in, and a culture that does actually seem to put a premium on responsibility, kindness, and basic decency. (That's not to say, of course, that there wasn't room for improvement. There always is and there always will be.) I guess it's kind of understandable, if unfortunate, because the overt text of Endwalker does do exactly this, so it can be hard to question the precedent set by The Very Text Itself.

But yes, Hermes feeling so much empathy towards the creations to the point of having a breakdown and shouting in Emet-Selch's face (which he simply took, in silence) seems to actually be exactly what convinces Emet-Selch that he would make an excellent Fandaniel, and that they need his perspective in leadership.

How do you reconcile things like this, along with things like Elidibus, even in an official capacity, quickly siding with Erichtonios on taking a humane approach to the dilemma of Pandaemonium - and even Lahabrea willing to listen and be reasonable about it - with Endwalker's proclamations about their society? In my opinion, you don't, which is why you see rhetorical tricks being pulled out like suddenly reverting to "the Convocation" as a nebulous entity when making claims about them being morally bankrupt rather than any of the actual people that comprise it that we know, which aligns with gestures like the generic, faceless strawmen in Venat's montage. Endwalker!

I can see why. She is a very fascinating villain.

(A little disappointed by her final form, though. Was I misguided for hoping for some terrible, Cthulhu-like eldritch abomination after the previous tiers and feeling a little wronged? I thought the extreme depths of her moral depravity might shatter SE's heretofore unrelenting need to give every female-coded villain the same obvious physical characteristics, but alas.)

Hey, there's still Savage in the wings! Don't give up hope! Hephaistos's Savage-exclusive form was absolutely wild, after all.

To actually contribute to this discussion of Athena's writing, though (rather than just declaring again that she's my wife - though, for the record, she is my wife) - the JP version of Erich's counter-argument to his mother actually seems to be even more specific about how unacceptable destroying/trampling upon "the life that exists now" in favor of "a new form of life" is, though someone more proficient in Japanese will have to clarify if they feel like it.

If I still had any faith in the creative team, it'd make me think that in the way Zodiark and Hydaelyn is framed as a battle between "the past" and "the future", then there's an obvious voice that's missing in the midst of that - the voice arguing on behalf of "the present."

EDIT: I can't figure out how to post images, apparently. Life is true suffering. At least I'll be more equipped against turning into a blasphemy...

EDIT II: I guess I can just link the JP line instead. Suffering partially averted, path to blasphemy back on the table.

EDIT III: btw athena is my w--

[Lunaxia]

EDIT II: I guess I can just link the JP line instead. Suffering partially averted, path to blasphemy back on the table.

Again, I will happily defer to an expert, but it seems similar. He just emphasises that by laying waste to those currently living on the star and becoming these new super beings, the world is basically going to be destroyed.

...so, how about that weather, huh?

[Brinne]

Again, I will happily defer to an expert, but it seems similar. He just emphasises that by laying waste to those currently living on the star and becoming these new super beings, the world is basically going to be destroyed.

...so, how about that weather, huh?

It's actually really nice where I am right now! Pleasantly cool, but there's sunshine. Seems like an excellent day to not plot to ascend to godhood, use that lofty position to assess the Flaws in our fellow human species, and then use our powers to wipe out all currently living life and reshape them into something "better" for the greater good of the world. Such things are... best left to our mother figures with the striking blue eyes...?

[Layte_Aeon]

It's actually really nice where I am right now! Pleasantly cool, but there's sunshine. Seems like an excellent day to not plot to ascend to godhood, use that lofty position to assess the Flaws in our fellow human species, and then use our powers to wipe out all currently living life and reshape them into something "better" for the greater good of the world. Such things are... best left to our mother figures with the striking blue eyes...?

It’s funny because the point she makes after that refutation is rather striking: In the end what she’s doing is no different to what her peers do. Elpis, Pandaemonium, even the natural selection beyond those walls all function in creating new life that inevitably replaces the old and obsolete. In that sense what she’s doing is just the end result of the ancients philosophy, and it’s not something any present company can actually refute.

Of course it’s undercut by her raging hypocrisy but oh well.

[Lunaxia]

It's actually really nice where I am right now! Pleasantly cool, but there's sunshine. Seems like an excellent day to not plot to ascend to godhood, use that lofty position to assess the Flaws in our fellow human species, and then use our powers to wipe out all currently living life and reshape them into something "better" for the greater good of the world. Such things are... best left to our mother figures with the striking blue eyes...?

You know, the colour is so similar I can't help but feel they did intend a parallel, but along the lines of "look at what happens when you shift in the other direction and selfishly aim for perfection!" - as opposed to slaughtering everyone in the name of artificially staggering progress - and something something love and hope conquers all, contrasting Athena's lack of a mother's love with Venat's supposed abundance of it.

Elpis, Pandaemonium, even the natural selection beyond those walls all function in creating new life that inevitably replaces the old and obsolete.

Which is very, very bad! Because you shouldn't treat life so carelessly, and should instead aim to protect, nuture and guide it instead of getting rid of it the moment it begins to show flaws!

...

[Cleretic]

It’s funny because the point she makes after that refutation is rather striking: In the end what she’s doing is no different to what her peers do. Elpis, Pandaemonium, even the natural selection beyond those walls all function in creating new life that inevitably replaces the old and obsolete. In that sense what she’s doing is just the end result of the ancients philosophy, and it’s not something any present company can actually refute.

Of course it’s undercut by her raging hypocrisy but oh well.

This is exactly why I liked Athena in theory, and was disappointed that they kinda underused her. She is just a logical extension of the Ancients' worldview, in a very real sense the villain that only their society could have produced and given power to. In a weird way, she's the Ancient parallel to Zenos like that.

Really wish she got more story in her own story.

[Elissar]

This is exactly why I liked Athena in theory, and was disappointed that they kinda underused her. She is just a logical extension of the Ancients' worldview, in a very real sense the villain that only their society could have produced and given power to. In a weird way, she's the Ancient parallel to Zenos like that.

Really wish she got more story in her own story.

I blame Lahabrea. She would be the perfect wife for Hermes.
Jokes aside, looks like the message is: see, the old world was not so pretty as they imagined, in fact, was not so distant from an asylum. Yes, they have some beauty here and there but some of them can't deal with tragedy and carnage, they want to rebuilt the reality in one way or another.
At this point, i would like to see more of the world outside of Elpis and some dungeons that we have access. Seems like the ancients are just old world Sharlayan: arrogant, selfish, isolated. They just notice their flaws when we finish them.

Louisoix is equivalent to Hermes, he hated their passivity so much that he left the dream island to die against a dragon.


In every corner of the realm we have one or more nonconformist changing the course of the story and i agree with your example using Zenos too.



The message is cool and we have more plot twist than we can imagine but...i really want to move on! lol

[Brinne]

You know, the colour is so similar I can't help but feel they did intend a parallel, but along the lines of "look at what happens when you shift in the other direction and selfishly aim for perfection!" - as opposed to slaughtering everyone in the name of artificially staggering progress

A fun bit I picked up from, er, browsing/collecting Athena fanart (for Reasons), since 6.2, is that they actually switched her model from having red eyes in the Abyssos scenes to the blue we see in Anabaseios! Honestly, some of the stuff with Athena is so on the nose I almost wonder - similar to the way Ishikawa's Omega sidequests (that were really, really obviously thrown in in response to some of the Hydaelyn backlash) basically found a way to say "Venat was wrong" in the Thavnair portion as long as it never directly said it or named her - only implied through general thematic exploration.

But like I said, I'm not holding my breath or anything. If it is unintentional, or seriously meant to set them up as contrasts, of all things, that's just extremely funny, so I can roll with it either way.

[Iscah]

I think that Venat's statement that end "so I take nothing for granted as I walk my path" and the uncertainty that we were in a closed loop timeline or not until the Mothercrystal scene meant that Venat was trying to find solutions to the Final Days that wouldn't involve Zodiark or the Sundering, and by the nature of returning to our timeline we don't see if there are timelines where Venat was less cautious about not taking any steps that would butterfly away Zodiark's creation nor do we get to see the timeline where her pleading to the Zodiark worshiping survivors [convinced them to stop] without having to Sunder.

This is an important point, I think. If we look at the way G'raha's timeline-splitting endeavours worked out and apply that same structure to Venat's potential efforts to avert the future we foretold, it is entirely possible that she did succeed and from that point onward time spun off in a different direction that we will never see or have any sense of its existence, because we are living in the equivalent of the 8UE timeline. It won't be wiped out, it won't be altered, but can only hope that the alteration succeeded.

And yet we don't see any proof of this contigency/defense plan of her, not even in her walk scene.

We wouldn't, because it didn't come to pass in this timeline where her efforts failed and things played out as foretold.

[Denishia]

This is an important point, I think. If we look at the way G'raha's timeline-splitting endeavours worked out and apply that same structure to Venat's potential efforts to avert the future we foretold, it is entirely possible that she did succeed and from that point onward time spun off in a different direction that we will never see or have any sense of its existence, because we are living in the equivalent of the 8UE timeline. It won't be wiped out, it won't be altered, but can only hope that the alteration succeeded.




We wouldn't, because it didn't come to pass in this timeline where her efforts failed and things played out as foretold.

And that the timelines where Venat's attempts at sharing what she knew would end in the disastrous annihilation of Etheirys would vastly outnumber any that saved the planet - Hermes learns of his nihilistic conclusion and doesn't discover the problem in the planetary aether currents that a hypothetical Zodiark would patch up, the general populace learns of the Endsinger and wide-spread panic or defeatism ensues or just a revolt and massive down-spiral of trust in the judgment of the Convocation, no longer trusting their wisdom or leadership so even if the Zodiark plan is proposed not nearly enough of the population believes in it to sacrifice their lives. A non-Zodiark plan is implemented. The wrong people die during the Final Days or too many people die before Zodiark is summoned and the primal isn't strong enough. Or Venat convinces the surviving Amaurotines not to trade the present and future life to return those that had just sacrificed themselves for the sake of creating that life.

These are all thought questions that could be interesting for an outside story - but it adds little to no value to the existing game. And those hypothetical timelines have even more gameplay issues than sending our WoL to the 8UE (If they did as a spin-off sequel, it would be worse than The After Years in plot rehash - about the best way to do the 8UE would be as a Dragonsong Ultimate What-if for ShB to work in the Hades and Elidibus fights). The Unsundered World works better as a sandbox farm/management sim than it does an MMO setting, and we already had our 'Play through the Final Days and find the way to stop it at the source in Endwalker'.