Thread: On Themis [6.4 SPOILER]

Originally Posted by Brinne

(Athena post)

I agree with the overall tone of your post, and likewise since tier 2 I've loved Athena from a feminist perspective of finally having a character that is so completely unapologetic and even uses her motherhood in the coldest, most despicable fashion. Let's just say I love that she's the openly narcissistic Ancient mom… The lines between her and Erich are so great. … even though I suppose it isn't really Erich then. Seriously. This story and its set up. MEH.

But it's the auracite twist still has me going "eh". It's not a full excuse that completely corrupted her. But I can't help but feel it dampens my enthusiasm a little, just because of the fact that it's there as a possibility. I think it's up to interpretation, but I take the exchange between Lahabrea and Erichthonios as tacit acknowledgment that she might have been a mother to him had it not gone this way, and that's what has me going "hm… shame". I don't think it's clearcut how much of this only happened because of the auracite's influence.
I just wanted her to have zero sort of anything that might even pass as an excuse. Maybe if I read your post enough and self-hypnotise I'll manage to forget this impression and fully revel in her glory like I once did before last Tuesday. I am looking forward to the Athena fan art this will spring, because there are quite a few pieces I've loved these past 9 months or so.

And her minion description just made me laugh. This Ancient narc mom knows how to deal with her simps!

Even putting aside glorious FEMINISM, the other aspect of what's consistently frustrating about the common media depictions of "a parent/mother's love always bears out in the end..." or what have you, is god, how infuriating and awful must it be for victims of that kind of abuse to have it reinforced that they should also factor in that deep deep down, their manipulative and abusive parents loved them, were really just putting on an evil face or hurting them for their sake, etc, etc, all the tropes we're so used to seeing?

It therefore really did feel remarkably good and brave and gutsy for the narrative to not just have Athena being herself, but also have Erichtonios confront that question head on, get the answer he got, and then be empowered to respond (with unabashed venom) in the way that he did, overcoming her influence and claiming his personhood and agency for himself.

As far as Lahabrea goes, I was sort of charmed (in that delicious Athena way) by the way she obviously was deeply disappointed that her husband (and later, us) simply didn't get it, because she truly sees her own perspective as obviously natural and reasonable, and is eager to have others agree with her. Part of what's terrifying about people like Athena is that there's something... not genuine, but also not fully fake, in their behavior in being interested in having someone as a partner or colleague, but also being able to flippantly and instantly reject you and throw you away like trash as soon as you "disappoint" them. In a way, I think that can destroy you even more thoroughly than if someone was just hateful and cruel from the get-go.

Originally Posted by Teraq

I agree with the overall tone of your post, and likewise since tier 2 I've loved Athena from a feminist perspective of finally having a character that is so completely unapologetic and even uses her motherhood in the coldest, most despicable fashion. Let's just say I love that she's the openly narcissistic Ancient mom… The lines between her and Erich are so great. … even though I suppose it isn't really Erich then. Seriously. This story and its set up. MEH.

But it's the auracite twist still has me going "eh". It's not a full excuse that completely corrupted her. But I can't help but feel it dampens my enthusiasm a little, just because of the fact that it's there as a possibility. I think it's up to interpretation, but I take the exchange between Lahabrea and Erichthonios as tacit acknowledgment that she might have been a mother to him had it not gone this way, and that's what has me going "hm… shame". I don't think it's clearcut how much of this only happened because of the auracite's influence.
I just wanted her to have zero sort of anything that might even pass as an excuse. Maybe if I read your post enough and self-hypnotise I'll manage to forget this impression and fully revel in her glory like I once did before last Tuesday. I am looking forward to the Athena fan art this will spring, because there are quite a few pieces I've loved these past 9 months or so.

And her minion description just made me laugh. This Ancient narc mom knows how to deal with her simps!

Thing is, the auracite would not have had that effect if she wasn't a narc in the first place. All that rock does is enhance traits already present in the person.

I actually made a post outlining what exactly I enjoyed about Amaurot/ the Ancients last night, but wound up deleting it out of already feeling more than a little self-conscious that the thread is rather replete with my takes on things already, hah - suffice to say, the other posters have phrased it quite perfectly and far more eloquently than I could have hoped to, particularly in terms of how the Ancients manage to feel both novel and interesting with their unique powers, worldview and general way of life, while still possessing a very human heart and the crucial ability to feel fundamentally relatable. They feel new and refreshing compared to the typical fantasy fare in my eyes, and absolutely rife with material for constructing stories full of nuance, depth and meaning; while it has certainly been more than messy at times, I think the sheer amount of debate their storyline has generated does, at least, attest to that, even if on a more superficial level others may find them boring.

Originally Posted by Lurina

In contrast, the Source is so dull to me [..]

I love this purely for how it unabashedly echoes exactly how I feel about the Source, yet always felt a little too mean to state outright, lol. When the theories were flying around about our possibly heading to the New World or some such place, everyone seemed so excited while I was inwardly groaning, because in story terms it felt like getting out of the theme park to go to grandma's place. In hindsight, it also helps me realise why I enjoyed HW and ShB over the likes of ARR and SB, setting aside matters of pacing and such; concepts like the dragons as a race and the sin eaters really added something new and original to the world and the story feels revitalised for their presence, while from a lore perspective also offering something you can really sink your teeth into. I will give credit where its due and say FFXIV can actually come up with some great original content when it wants to (which makes these constant story rips all the more frustrating.) Where it lags is when the focus shifts to the characters in a more typically human setting, because, a few figures here and there aside... the writing tends to get very trope-y, preachy and predictable, to the point you just know where it's going and how everybody's going to act, and the characters we meet who might hold potential wind up suffocated against the narrative brick wall that is the Scions and whatever message the writers have chained the expansion's overall story to.

(And welcome back, even if briefly, Teraq!)

Originally Posted by Alleluia

The devouring parent isn't exclusively female, though. Chronos ate his kids, too.

Yes, but he doesn't fit the archetype. He didn't fatten and smother his children but he was afraid of them taking away his position of power (which he got prophecied would happen). Chronos is distinctly unfeminine in that regard.

Another modern example that's less on the nose and more realistic would be Lysa Arryn from the Song of Ice and Fire series.

Originally Posted by Brinne

Not all of them may be as major as a central raid villain, or as over-the-top, but there's also the likes of Asahi, Nabriales, Teledji Adeledji, and some would argue Zenos (I'm not sure that I would, though, in his case), that I can think of.

True, I love all of those guys.

Originally Posted by Lurina

In contrast, the Source is so dull to me. It's a Forgotten Realms-ass fantasy kitchen sink with themes and motifs you can find anywhere, spread out without any underlying direction. I like some of the characters, but I don't give a damn about any of these factions and places - even the interesting ones like Gridania have had all their edges filed off since 1.0. When I hear people talk about how they hope the next several expansions get away from all this cross-dimensional stuff to focus on the Source, it makes me feel like I'm going insane. I don't wanna be here! It's so boring! Ahhhhh!!!!!!!!

There are no words to express just how much I feel the weight of these words in my very soul. Sometimes I wonder if I was actually in any of these bog-standard fantasy worlds if I'd be just like the villains the stories wish for you to despise for the simple fact that I see no unique value in them. I don't know, it just feels like when you've seen one fantasy world you've seen them all sometimes. There's only so much blue mountains and yellow skies you can see before it begins to grow monotonous.

Either way, I feel more apathy in response to it than exacerbation.

Originally Posted by Eisi

Yes, but he doesn't fit the archetype. He didn't fatten and smother his children but he was afraid of them taking away his position of power (which he got prophecied would happen). Chronos is distinctly unfeminine in that regard.

Another modern example that's less on the nose and more realistic would be Lysa Arryn from the Song of Ice and Fire series.

Kronos had a very masculine way of devouring his kids. Namely, that he just straight up ate them with all the stereotypical forcefulness and headstrong that is exemplary of what most understand to be masculine. Where Kronos chose the masculine approach of simple violence, generally one would expect mothers to instead undermine their children to render them powerless. Honestly I don't feel the absolute most qualified to speak here, but from my own admittedly meagre understanding of the matter that's typically what people expect the difference to be. Feel free to correct any inaccuracy on my part, however.