Please buff AST

[Semirhage]

"Healers get attacked and harassed for ever using GCD heals in high end content!"
- people who never do high end content

Tale as old as "but healers shouldn't want to have interesting non-healing kits!"

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

From my experience[…]

Sounds about the same as my own, even though I only started out in early 5.2. pugging from 5.3 occasionally up till early 6.1. I did not PF as often because I tend to avoid it, but never once in my life have seen these ‘attacked & harassed’ over using GCD heals. From prog to clears; one of my PF had -both- of the healers overhealing each other in Emerald EX back in 5.4 & nobody bats an eye nor mentioned it. Same to that Hydaelyn EX back in 6.0. Asp Helios 4 times in a row & rare Fall Malefic casts? Nope, not a word been said.

[…]Tale as old as "but healers shouldn't want to have interesting non-healing kits!"

It’s certainly amusing to see ToS suddenly turning invisible in such anecdotes.

[ForsakenRoe]

Was cohealing with a random pug SGE from last week's reclear of 12 (it was on a monday due to irl issues so kinda down to the wire). It was a 'clear party', not even a weekly, 7/8 people in there had not actually beaten the fight. The SGE had 30 casts of Eprog in the clear pull, absolutely zero complaints were made about 'oh you're using too many GCDs on healing' across every pull we had including wipes.

See, in Savage, the absolute majority of wipes are not caused by hitting the enrage timer. They're caused by mechanical failures like 'oops i didn't get to the tower in time' or 'whoops i didn't take the right shape mb'. If 'the healer used a few too many GCDs on healing when it was not needed' is such an issue that it causes an enrage, you've got bigger issues. Because Dosis for me is around 12k, so those 30 Eprogs (were I to change them ALL to Dosis) would be like 360k. That's like 'the difference between 3 DCrit Hyosho's, and 3 Hyosho's that noodle'. Crit Variance (tm) on your DPS is going to be much more likely the reason you wipe to an enrage. People are getting themselves worked up, psyching themselves out over a boogeyman that doesn't exist in the numbers they believe

And if you DO run into someone stupid enough to chastise you for playing safe (especially in content where the amount of damage you deal doesn't matter ie MSQ EXroulette NormalRaid/Trial), report them, since the TOS is there for that reason

[Zeastria]

Anyway shouldn't this be about AST? - been going far off the original thread.

[Renathras]

But it is.

Please note the bolded word that you appear to have skipped over/ignored for convenience:

The comment I replied to:

No you don't, why are you making up scenarios about content you don't do and saying that happens often? That doesn't happen, especially not in Ultimate where GCD healing is required

"That doesn't happen" is what I was replying to.

The "often" is anecdote, and will defend on any number of things (PF or Static, which kind of Static, which DC as they each have different raid scenes, etc)

It isn't in "tales from DF" since the people posting in there are doing so to badmouth "toxic casuals", not the opposite. That'd be like asking why conservative media isn't badmouthing Republicans or liberal media isn't badmouthing Democrats. The only time I've seen people kick a Healer for not GCD healing is when I died (Innocence swords someone ran through the party) and the other Healer LITERALLY cast Glare and no heal - not even oGCDs - on the Tank until the Tank died. Then the other Tank died. Then the DPS started dying. This Healer also didn't cast a Raise on literally anyone. Glare Glare Glare until they - last standing of the party - died. That's the only time I've ever seen a Healer kicked for "not healing", and it was so ridiculously egregious (as well as proving I was solo healing the entire encounter and all our pulls before then and including then), and that's also the only time I recall people talking bad about Healers focusing too much on damage.

On the other hand, I've seen complaints for years against Healers "healing too much" or "not using your damage spells" (and this not being me; I remember some DPS complaining about Healers not using DoTs back as far as HW four man dungeons - yes, content where it was completely irrelevant).

So it does HAPPEN - Nizzi is wrong - and it CAN happen OFTEN - your (snarky?) response and Nizzi both being wrong - depending on DC, community/scene you're in, etc.

"If it happens so often, why haven't I seen it...?"

Just because a thing happens often doesn't mean it happens to everyone. Few people (relative as part of the population) have experienced assault/harassment/etc, but it clearly happens "often" and to a lot of people. You not experiencing a thing != the thing does not happen often, and double != the thing doesn't happen at all (which was Nizzi's statement I replied to)

Anyway shouldn't this be about AST? - been going far off the original thread.

Agreed.

That...happens here.

A lot.

Alot a lot.

[Sebazy]

Just because a thing happens often doesn't mean it happens to everyone. Few people (relative as part of the population) have experienced assault/harassment/etc, but it clearly happens "often" and to a lot of people. You not experiencing a thing != the thing does not happen often, and double != the thing doesn't happen at all (which was Nizzi's statement I replied to)

That’s an awful comparison tbh. Whilst few people experience assault or such first hand thankfully, a very large number of people will have witnessed it, likely first hand in some manner. If you regularly go clubbing/pubbing, you’ve almost certainly seen someone being attacked first hand because that is something that truely happens often. Even if you yourself don’t, you likely have friends or family with the scars to show for it. You see it on the tv, you read it in the paper. It’s everywhere and it’s undeniable.

Meanwhile in this case, we always hear the same thing from the same sort of player but despite the claims of how frequent it is, they never seem to have anything to back up said claims. Where are the outrage videos, where are the chat log screenshots? They should be everywhere since it happens often and people love to get mad about things.

The answer is that it doesn’t happen with anything like the frequency you like to pretend because people know full well that it’s an express ticket to GM jail. I’m not saying it never happens, the player base has plenty enough idiots that are dumb enough to do far worse than moan about a healer GCD healing. But pretending that it’s a common occurrence is comical. You’re only fooling yourselves.

As for your closing point. Maybe don’t push conjecture as fact and perhaps it won’t get called out /shrug

[Renathras]

...

We can quibble on the details - r8pe almost always happens in private where there aren't witnesses - the point stands: You not seeing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen often, and almost certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen EVER.

I was replying to Nizzi, not to you or anyone else.

Nizzi's specific comment I was replying to was "That doesn't happen,".

There was no "you like to pretend", as I'm not "pretending" anything. I was counting an absolute statement that said it DOESN'T happen. If it happens in even ONE case, that absolute statement is false. You're engaging in ad hominems "from the same sort of player", and you're attacking SOMEONE ELSE'S CLAIM by attacking me as a proxy. Do you not see how antagonistic and off-putting that is?

If you have a problem with Zeastria's statement - maybe you should quote Zeastria's post and make your reply to Zeastria?

When you attack someone who wasn't part of it, didn't say those things, and was responding to a far more narrow thing, it makes it look like you're out to get me specifically, even though there's zero reason to here. And no "past discussions", not to mention I can't even think of the last time this came up, and I generally couch my statements to be more specific and less overblown as you claim when talking about this specific issue.

You really want to pick a fight over this? I'm not the one pushing the issue. I'm not the one pushing conjecture as fact. You're supporting someone who made an absolutely false absolute statement. Stop it please. You're a generally reasonable person, this isn't a fight you should have picked.

[IDontPetLalas]

We can quibble on the details - r8pe almost always happens in private where there aren't witnesses - the point stands: You not seeing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen often, and almost certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen EVER.

I was replying to Nizzi, not to you or anyone else.

Nizzi's specific comment I was replying to was "That doesn't happen,".

There was no "you like to pretend", as I'm not "pretending" anything. I was counting an absolute statement that said it DOESN'T happen. If it happens in even ONE case, that absolute statement is false. You're engaging in ad hominems "from the same sort of player", and you're attacking SOMEONE ELSE'S CLAIM by attacking me as a proxy. Do you not see how antagonistic and off-putting that is?

If you have a problem with Zeastria's statement - maybe you should quote Zeastria's post and make your reply to Zeastria?

When you attack someone who wasn't part of it, didn't say those things, and was responding to a far more narrow thing, it makes it look like you're out to get me specifically, even though there's zero reason to here. And no "past discussions", not to mention I can't even think of the last time this came up, and I generally couch my statements to be more specific and less overblown as you claim when talking about this specific issue.

You really want to pick a fight over this? I'm not the one pushing the issue. I'm not the one pushing conjecture as fact. You're supporting someone who made an absolutely false absolute statement. Stop it please. You're a generally reasonable person, this isn't a fight you should have picked.

Typically I don't care about your drama however your analogy in that first line is really disgusting for any true victims and is really out of line. So much drama here, why not just walk away without responding. No one's attacking you.

No need to play the victim here.

[Sebazy]

<snip>

Uh I think you're misunderstanding my point here. And meh, I'm being civil no? I've chewed you out far harder in the past, over the 3dps vs 2dps dungeons for example. It's an interesting discussion, frankly far more interesting than Lisa suggesting that ASTs are too weak at least. I don't care if it was aimed at me or not. If I see someone saying something that's clearly incorrect and I feel I have either the knowledge or examples on hand to correct them, then I'm going to do so. Discussion and debate != fighting FYI.

The example you use is meaningless, your first example above is routinely confirmed with DNA and clothing fibre analysis. As for the rest, even if you're lucky enough to not have experienced them first hand, It takes me all of 30 seconds to find a robbery, car crash and wrongful arrest on YouTube. These are things that happen often enough that they are well documented.

Whilst recorded and documented examples of 'bad behaviour' in Ffxiv aren't quite as prevalent, if you need to hand wave away the tales from DF thread, lets go to YouTube and try to find actual gameplay videos calling out healers then. First search = Ffxiv terrible healer

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkimGCu9ReY - (Gonna break the link for this one, might want to mute it if you watch it!) - Old school, the title is also a little unfair, the healer appears to have a broken or super low level weapon equipped for what it's worth with their benefic IIs healing for less than the SMNs Physics, the Nin is clearly asleep at the wheel. So this is just someone venting about what is a comically bad dungeon run all round. If the healer sorted their weapon out I imagine it would have been fine. Note that despite all the profanity, the guy isn't grumbling about the healer spamming heals. It's about the heals doing nothing and the healer having no spatial awareness to boot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzjSMEcqekI - Ohoh what's this, it's a recent video of someone calling out their co-healer over GCD heals... Except they are calling them out because they aren't GCD healing enough, oh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0nnp7m7c1Q - A self upload critique video of someone who is seemingly pretty new to healing. Bucket loads of errors top to bottom: Bad choice of stance, slow reactions, poor targeting, poor triage choices and the dps in the group weren't exactly making his life easier with chains either. Basically the wrong dungeon to be learning on the job, that boss was evil if people didn't break chains fast. But importantly to us, still no dice on finding any complaints about too much GCD healing.

Let's search for FFXIV Worst healer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQrY5ghs0M4 - It's another video complaining about a healer not healing and having a fight with the tank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXDnSyx07RI - BLM pulling agro, tank and healer premade getting grouchy over it and letting the blm die then kicking.

I think at this point youtube's not going to turn up a vod of anyone chewing out a healer over using their GCD heals too much.

Let's see what google says when I search for ffxiv healer gcd healing too much

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._to_gcd_heals/ - First result is a reddit hit, and again, it's someone complaining that healers have an aversion to GCD healing, not that they are abusing them too much:

'I'm not talking about properly using oGCD heals to keep the party healthy and occasionally casting a spell or two, I'm talking about using all of them and just flat out refusing to remember Cure is a thing. It's not like they're tunnel vision-ing on their own DPS because some of them don't even! Hell, some healers just refuse to raise others unless Swiftcast is up...what.'

The responses range from 'if you died to your own mistakes, I'm not raising you without swiftcast either' to 'are you sure they aren't using afflatus?'. I don't see a single complaint about healers GCD healing too much. Next!

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...white_mage_in/ - This one's a little bit more interesting, finally we get something relevant!

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ge_in/jiehfiz/ This part of the thread really sums the whole thing up in a nutshell:

Healy healer states that they would rather spend their GCDs healing and doesn't understand why some others are so adverse to it.

Raidy healer responds pointing out the optimisation benefits of trying to get healing done with oGCDs first in the pov from someone who likely progs savage or may even just be habitual try hard.

Rando responder jumps in with the regular '1 GCD per raid wide isn't going to hurt' retort.

Raidy healer responds clarifying that basically GCD healing isn't bad, but it can be wasteful and inefficient.

IMHO taking in these sorts of discussions without understanding the context and actual expectations in game is what gives people like Zeastria raid anxiety. They are judging themselves to theory crafter ideals that get waved around places like here, reddit and the balance without understanding the fact that these are ideals, goals and standards to aim for rather than a level everyone expects little Timmy to be able to play to.

The TLDR of all of this is that people aren't complaining about healers that are GCD healing a bit too much. They are complaining about healers with missing/broken gear, they are complaining about healers that are afk, playing like a bot or doing meme worthy things like spamming Medica II endlessly. I can dig up threads griping about all of these things, but I can't find a single thread genuinely chewing out a healer in game that's using their GCD heals too often without it generally being rooted in something else like the healer letting them die, doing 0 DPS, failing mechanics or just being AFK.

I'm not going to sit here and say that it never happens, but I am going to say that I suspect that you're more likely to get moaned at over your choice of glamour, name or race than you are if you cast Cure II a few to many times.

In that regard, Zeastria's comment is pretty solidly untrue IMO.

[Renathras]

Going for technicalities is irrelevant.

Again, replace with IRS audits. Have you ever been audited? Do you personally know anyone who has?

Or really technical legal violations. Have you ever been prosecuted for lying on the form to buy a gun? Do you personally know anyone who has?

We can keep going, but sooner or later, I will get to a thing that happens, and happens somewhat frequently, that you have not had happen to you nor know someone personally it's happened to nor know of anyone even not-personally it's happened to.

Trying to debate the specific example of the specific crime is irrelevant, the point was obvious. So obvious trying to fight over it is beyond stupid, so I'm not going to bother doing it. You have to be willfully obtuse to think that the specific crime is relevant to the example, and you aren't stupid, Sebazy. You know the point. You can disagree with the point, but you can't disagree with the reality that some things happen, and even happen frequently, that are not widely known or discussed by large portions of the population. You're smart, you get the point of what I was saying, yet twice you've tried to argue about the specific crimes mentioned and how easy or hard they are to detect or know about, which was 100% irrelevant and you know it's irrelevant since you're smart enough to understand the general premise I was trying to convey.

That's the kinda stuff here that frustrates me. Many of you do this, and I have no idea for the life of me why, since you guys are smart enough to understand what I'm trying to say, you just choose not to for some ungodly reason.

And for what it's worth, a favorite strawman of this very subforum is the "Cure1 spammer" or "Medica spammer" - you know, a Healer using/overusing GCD heals instead of using those GCDs for dealing damage. "But that's different!", it's the same thing. IT feeds into the same perception. It's the same thing as the people who will say "You only got a gray, you don't get to have a say in this discussion" stuff.

.

If you had an issue with Zeastria's comment, you should have taken that up with her.

The fact you replied to me, specifically, to try and call me out, when I'm right, is what makes you wrong.

Once more, I wasn't arguing Zeastria's comment.

Zeastria's comment is thus irrelevant to whether or not you chose to call me out.

_I_ was calling Nizzi's comment that it NEVER happens ("doesn't happen" being the wording used) as false. And it is 100% false. I know it is, because it's happened in parties I've been in. By definition, that is cases of it happening. By definition, that makes the statement it never/doesn't happen false.

If you want to say Zeastria's comment is false, that's fine - tell her, not me.

If you're saying I'm wrong in saying Nizzi's statement is false, that means you're saying Nizzi's statement was true. But Nizzi's statement was false. So if you're doing that, you're wrong.

.

EDIT:

I'm not going to sit here and say that it never happens,...

This is literally what I was saying when you called me out.

That's it.

So you saying it now means you agree with me and what I said, since that's literally what I was saying, in which case you shouldn't have called me out over it in the first place. And that's all I'm going to say over it. This conversation is just not worth continuing at this point.