These forums are weird

[Atelier-Bagur]

"Why are you still with your girlfriend, didn't you say she was abusive?"

Sometimes people are stuck with what they know and hope it'll get better for them, and XIV is an old game that they used to feel comfortable with and even good about. It ain't that complicated.
Yeah it's a 'video game' and it's sad - But it's still a hobby a lot of people have actively engaged in, made friends in, built communities around for a decade.

For a lot of players XIV might actually have been their first MMO, and they don't really want to look around, or even know how. So they just want it to get better.

I think if SE reduced the predatory subscription systems with housing, FC ownership, and raid lockouts - We wouldn't be so attached.

I dont think raid lockouts is predatory. Housing and FC ownership for sure, although thankfully not many people own a house anyway. Please hoping that IS eventually fixes this, now that they're adding more housing features there.

[R041]

I dont think raid lockouts is predatory. Housing and FC ownership for sure, although thankfully not many people own a house anyway. Please hoping that IS eventually fixes this, now that they're adding more housing features there.

Right, raid lockout isn't super predatory to me as an example, but I know it is enough for some.

I've taken the easier route and just do Normals now, I don't really see a reason to chase BiS or even do Savage because it's too demanding for what it gives back. I get the same feeling with Savage as I do a competitive game like CS:GO, except with CS it's easier for me to rank and hop in/out any time of day or week.

Oh hey, I kind of missed your Over-the-top Analogies
Still a good laugh from the stupidity of it.

You're right its not the complicated, so why are You Pretending it ever was?
FFXIV is also my 1st "real" MMO (Im not sure if I count Runescape honestly) I am very much attached to it...but still, if it ever went down a road where literally "There is no saving it, its dead, I hate it, I find NO Joy Here"...Im out, Id leave. An FC, a House...there is nothing stopping me from leaving and canceling a Sub to a game if it no longer is fun.

I dont need a rationalization to keep me playing.
I just need the game to be fun.
Not fun anymore?...goodbye.

Its that simple

It was supposed to be over the top, to be funny. Lighten up. lol

Anyway, you say that until it actually happens to you. I can imagine the people here saying this type of shit like "Yeah you just move on" will likely act the same way eventually. Even Atelier was similar - much better tempered, but still eventually went over the edge all the same.

I know, because of the fact that you aggressively interact with the community - Means you're likely quick to act in the opposite position as well. That's just how it is for folks like us.

Edit: It's also funny when I see WoW Players say similar shit too - When I know for a fact they prob made a huge stink on the WoW forums before they eventually quit. If you're loud, you're loud. When you're happy you're loud, when you're mad you're also gonna be loud. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

It was supposed to be over the top, to be funny. Lighten up. lol

I said I missed it, and that it was a good laugh
rofl

Anyway, you say that until it actually happens to you. I can imagine the people here saying this type of shit like "Yeah you just move on" will likely act the same way eventually. Even Atelier was similar - much better tempered, but still eventually went over the edge all the same.

I know, because of the fact that you aggressively interact with the community - Means you're likely quick to act in the opposite position as well. That's just how it is for folks like us.

Edit: It's also funny when I see WoW Players say similar shit too - When I know for a fact they prob made a huge stink on the WoW forums before they eventually quit. If you're loud, you're loud. When you're happy you're loud, when you're mad you're also gonna be loud. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

Ive taken several breaks from this game from Burnout. Ive played it for 8 years straight. Im not Bored or Tiered of the game.
But just, there are other games out there to play with different stories, gameplay styles and such.
I skipped 2 patches in Stormblood, and 1 whole patch in Shadowbringers, and I still came back to this game, after playing other games.
So I feel 100&% secure that If I was ready to leave, I could, and would with no hesitation.

Despite how some people feel about me and how they read my posts, I am a FIRM Believer, of "make yourself heard."
Never be afraid to speak your mind. I might disagree with people, but I NEVER attempt to silence them, or tell them they cant speak on any matter or say anything.

----

I have not misrepresented anything
You have though on several occasions when people like myself have also voiced Grievances and have said the Game isnt Perfect and have pointed out its issues. Both in its storytelling, and with its gameplay. And you sit here and say "The Usual posters are here defending the game" All because you have said, many things, that are silly, and disagreeable. And then take jabs at people who do like the game, while talking about.
Many times Ive tried to be supportive of you, and told you several times that you say agreeable things. But you seem to pretend this didnt happen, just because I didnt 100% agree with you.

I didnt win anything. There is no Victory here. I take no pleasure in your leave.
Only in the idea that you could be happier doing something other then complain and being unhappy.

But yes, I will poke fun at your presence, because several times you talk about leaving. Yet you are still here.
Just like the Food Memes...it happened because you keep talking about it.

[Renathras]

Not completely true as there are number of people still generally happy about the game that still post here and give out their concerns. I'm one of them. What I think the issue here is all the drama and negative andys diluting the feedback with hot takes, trolling, memes.

Same.

Plenty of people who are positive post here, but the negative Nancies attack them, personally insult them, troll them, then massive upvote the heckling posts. This is disheartening to most positive people, who then simply leave since positive people don't want to deal with that. A few of us have especially thick skin and/or stubbornness so will keep at it despite the cruelty. It doesn't help that there seem to be no moderators here at all to actually tell people to stop behaving that way, so the bad actors act with impunity. I do like freedom of speech, but freedom of rampant insult needs to be tamped down sometime or you get no productive conversation since, when the negative Nancies disagree with people, they stop presenting arguments against them and just start flame/troll/heckle wars to shut them up/down.

And while the negative posters are many and start many threads, including on the same topic (on the liveletter, there were about 5 negative threads, 1 positive, and a few days later, 1 neutral; the 1 positive was brigaded by the negative posters who took it as a personal attack against them to dare posting something positive), they don't share the idea that others should be free to share positive thoughts, and insist it means the positive players are new, ignorant, and/or don't love the game as much as they do. In a bit of intellectual paradox, they insist the only way one can love the game is by attacking it and anyone that does love it with hate and vitriol, and they justify this as they're just tired of "being ignored" so long that they can do whatever they want and it's okay. (It is not, in fact, okay.)

That's why there aren't many constructive or positive posts, despite people happy with the game VERY likely being the majority of the playerbase. As the old saying goes, people happy with the game are playing the game, people unhappy complain about it on the forums. In a game of over 2 million players, a few hundred negative forum posters are a minority. But they've convinced themselves they aren't and so argue from a position of faux authority.

Oh hey...
Its that simple

Same. WoW was my first MMO. While I did flirt with leaving it a few times, at some point, I just decided it was time and left it. I haven't looked back or played it since. If a thing is truly bad and you are choosing to pay money for it, that is entirely a you decision. It means that it isn't an irredeemable mess or the like, as if it was...well, that or you're just a very irrational person to act that way, but not all Humans are rational, so that does check out, I suppose...

[TowaIsBestGirl]

snip

Honestly, the prevailing forum headcanon around here is so supremely intriguing to me. It's like people have forgotten that this forum is the only viable place to actually voice feedback, to the point where the devs themselves all but informed us to post said critiques specifically here. And yet despite this obvious truth, somehow all the less positive posters are mere hecklers? Strange.

If you were Genuine in giving feedback for the game, you wouldn't insult people who Love the game as "white knights". People who use that insult are here just to fight and bring the mood down.

It is literally always used as an insult unless you're praising them for their chivalry. When you call people white knights, you're calling them blind contrarians. Yes, that is very much an insult. Don't lie about it. Either own the fact you're insulting people or stop insulting people. You VERY CLEARLY don't mean it as a positive or praise.

You possess the temerity to prove how the calling out of "White Knights" is any different than the calling out of "Negative Nancies"? I'll highlight the difference for you, to your benefit. Morally, there is no difference. The difference lies in that one is called out with relish and frequency (and rightly so), while the alternative is ramping up rapidly due to going unchallenged. I can see the unfairness of what is actually occurring here on these forums in regularity with ease, why am I seemingly unique in this? The achievement poses no difficulty.

VERY few people are saying the game is perfect. They're saying the hyperbole is just that, over the top hyperbole, and they're pointing out the good parts of the game and measured changes needed to improve it.

For all their fabled negativity, all the legitimate critique I've seen posted here thus far has come from the "Negative Nancies". The rest pose things they may not have liked, but they segue into declarations of liking Final Fantasy XIV in spite of what they didn't like and thus their critiques are drowned out and forgotten about. It sometimes does begin to resemble wishy-washy poor-faith posters who have no clear grievances they actually wish to air, but that's naught more than a hunch on my part I'll freely admit.

People who want to be mad and salty also want the illusion that they are an unchallenged majority. Many also want to bring other people down to their level to join them - "Misery loves company...even if it has to make it." This, they think, improves their chances of getting the changes they want. It also means they will attack and attempt to run off or silence dissenting voices, since that breaks the illusion that their positions are universal and unchallenged, and those voices of dissent would imply they need to compromise and reach neutral ground with those they disagree with, something they very much don't want to do.

So they get into personal attacks to try and drive off those people and/or silence them. Ironically, these are the same people that will defend their toxicity as "well, we've just been ignored and silenced, so that makes what we're doing understandable and okay".

See, this right here is a picture perfect example of the Men of Straw I've come to expect seeing from some of the more famed members of the segments of posters here accused of white knighting. When presented with such an inaccurate and poor representation of themselves, is it any wonder at all some get fed up and begin to simply snap their jaws at people? Everyone has a limit to their patience, and perhaps it might behoove you to examine the possibility that the reason boundless negativity you find so prevalent is as such because it was intentionally baited to occur.

"Forum culture" is what the moderators make it. Allowing people to openly criticise the game itself is not the same thing as allowing personal attacks on those who disagree, or allowing the same person to flood the forum with multiple threads on slightly different versions of the same complaint.

Active moderators could be managing the forum so much better without having any impact on people's ability to post criticism of the game itself.

Honestly, I'm not entirely convinced active moderation would change these forums in as drastic a manner as some feel it would. Or if it did, they'd suddenly find themselves unsatisfied with the outcome and wishing for a return to how things used to be. Specifically, I do believe a good portion of posters here aren't actually as familiar with the typical definitions (and of course, how to properly differentiate the two) of critique and personal attacks as they ought to be.

Simply put, I do not believe there's any way to properly satisfy all or even most parties. Not with the way Square has intentionally designed these forums to operate.

[Renathras]

HAnd yet despite this obvious truth, somehow all the less positive posters are mere hecklers? Strange.

Nice strawman you've got there.

There are people with honest critique. Then there are the people who are hecklers. The former actually have good arguments, and will engage in discussion with people they disagree with, defending their points and answering counterpoints.

The hecklers don't do that. They just call people names, berate and belittle people, often insist if you haven't cleared the latest Ultimate you can have no valid opinion, and generally are just total dicks to people. These people then get 10-20-30 likes and upvotes for low effort posts.

I make a distinction between people who have arguments and engage in discussion and those who engage in namecalling, personal attacks, and heckling those who ARE trying to.

.

I can go through and dismantle the rest of your post as well, if you like, but I thought I'd start with dispelling that strawman you have. Though I do want to mention specifically this:

For all their fabled negativity, all the legitimate critique I've seen posted here thus far has come from the "Negative Nancies".

Have you read any of my posts where I critique or call out things I dislike about the game and offer arguments in support of those critiques as well as suggestions for solutions? I'm clearly not a "Negative Nancy", yet I've done so. You say "all the legitimate critique", meaning none at all comes from those who are not "Negative Nancies". So can you tell me which of my critiques was illegitimate and why it isn't legitimate?

...or did you just pull that out of your keister and not think you'd be challenged on it?

[TowaIsBestGirl]

Nice strawman you've got there.

There are people with honest critique. Then there are the people who are hecklers. The former actually have good arguments, and will engage in discussion with people they disagree with, defending their points and answering counterpoints.

The hecklers don't do that. They just call people names, berate and belittle people, often insist if you haven't cleared the latest Ultimate you can have no valid opinion, and generally are just total dicks to people. These people then get 10-20-30 likes and upvotes for low effort posts.

I make a distinction between people who have arguments and engage in discussion and those who engage in namecalling, personal attacks, and heckling those who ARE trying to.

.

I can go through and dismantle the rest of your post as well, if you like, but I thought I'd start with dispelling that strawman you have. Though I do want to mention specifically this:



Have you read any of my posts where I critique or call out things I dislike about the game and offer arguments in support of those critiques as well as suggestions for solutions? I'm clearly not a "Negative Nancy", yet I've done so. You say "all the legitimate critique", meaning none at all comes from those who are not "Negative Nancies". So can you tell me which of my critiques was illegitimate and why it isn't legitimate?

...or did you just pull that out of your keister and not think you'd be challenged on it?

People who want to be mad and salty also want the illusion that they are an unchallenged majority. Many also want to bring other people down to their level to join them - "Misery loves company...even if it has to make it." This, they think, improves their chances of getting the changes they want. It also means they will attack and attempt to run off or silence dissenting voices, since that breaks the illusion that their positions are universal and unchallenged, and those voices of dissent would imply they need to compromise and reach neutral ground with those they disagree with, something they very much don't want to do.

So they get into personal attacks to try and drive off those people and/or silence them. Ironically, these are the same people that will defend their toxicity as "well, we've just been ignored and silenced, so that makes what we're doing understandable and okay".

Well, I'd start with this part of your previous post in particular. The one I specifically outlined in my previous post, and the part you seemed to have omitted. How odd. What you are doing, is raising yourself up on a pedestal of innocence while providing no proof as to why you deserve to stand upon it. In the very same post, you denounce wholesale all those who disagree with you as mere hecklers who wish only to commit to various rows. This is hardly behavior worthy of praise or admiration, and something I've noticed is rather prevalent around here.

Rest assured in the fact that I'm not calling you specifically out for this. Rather, this is an unworthy behavior shared by others not you and I'm issuing a call to be better. An equal one, mind. I'm not interested in taking sides, but I've definitely noticed which posters are seemingly vile villains and which are precursory exonerates is often very particular and selective.

[R041]

I said I missed it, and that it was a good laugh
rofl




Ive taken several breaks from this game from Burnout. Ive played it for 8 years straight. Im not Bored or Tiered of the game.
But just, there are other games out there to play with different stories, gameplay styles and such.
I skipped 2 patches in Stormblood, and 1 whole patch in Shadowbringers, and I still came back to this game, after playing other games.
So I feel 100&% secure that If I was ready to leave, I could, and would with no hesitation.

Despite how some people feel about me and how they read my posts, I am a FIRM Believer, of "make yourself heard."
Never be afraid to speak your mind. I might disagree with people, but I NEVER attempt to silence them, or tell them they cant speak on any matter or say anything.

Alright, misread then - The internet is hard. lol

Yeah I've done the same thing where I missed actually half of Shadowbringers and a couple patches of Stormblood. But I felt pretty good about it, and I felt great about still staying subbed while having a house and FC. I felt like I could hop back on and have no issues, nothing really wrong. Plenty to do, plenty to see.

I guess right now for me, and maybe others - Is I feel a little trapped with these predatory systems, and it really sucks that I love the housing so much but just not feeling anything else right now.

Maybe the spark will come back eventually and I won't feel so bitter. But right now, these systems just make it feel worse than it should be.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Right, raid lockout isn't super predatory to me as an example, but I know it is enough for some.

I've taken the easier route and just do Normals now, I don't really see a reason to chase BiS or even do Savage because it's too demanding for what it gives back. I get the same feeling with Savage as I do a competitive game like CS:GO, except with CS it's easier for me to rank and hop in/out any time of day or week.

This is why I stopped Savage raiding because this game's progression being so short and unsatisfactory. Not only is it very accessible and easy to get geared up for endgame raids (because the ilv requirement being so low for doing the content) but BiS is just pointless. Why spend so much time doing the same content over and over again if there's no progression behind it? With an example say WoW with its Mythic+ Dungeons, at least that makes sense because the design of it is for the progression to be near endless, with difficulty increasing so you'd have a different experience theoretically. But with Savage raiding, this is all we get. You clear the content and the gear you get is pretty much just dyable glam. The ilv discrepency of it gets easily shorten due to the frequent patch cycles of catch up gear so you dont get to much enjoy BiS in the long run.

There's no content outside of Savage where that matters; besides Ultimates and Criterion but as the game shows us, Ultimates arent frequent to come by and Criterion Dungeons while fun, lack any meaningful rewards anyway.

I wish I could ask this to every Savage player why they get so worked up over FFXIV's gearing where it doesnt ultimately matter compared to other MMO's endgame where the longevity justifies to get overly upset about it.

But that rant aside, yeah I'm currently just happy to doing the Normal raiding content.