What would prevent 0/1 Healer clears of content?

[Renathras]

What on earth does...

Good holy GOD if you would stop putting words in my mouth for one single second you might actually be able to get a productive discussion going. I wasn't strictly even talking about HEALERS since this is a problem of all roles in the game right now.

Indeed, but is that really relevant here or are you just trying to downplay the point?

It's relevant as it points out that this is nothing new in this game, and the only reason it took so long then was likely a lower level of player skill, not that it wasn't possible at the time or that the design of the game/Healers has devolved since then. And people WEREN'T complaining about it back then.

[Sebazy]

It's relevant as it points out that this is nothing new in this game, and the only reason it took so long then was likely a lower level of player skill, not that it wasn't possible at the time or that the design of the game/Healers has devolved since then. And people WEREN'T complaining about it back then.

That's not really a valid assumption.

My Titan tanking on WHM was literally years before then, a JP group pulled the same thing off around the same time as me as well. Double WHM WP farms were a known thing within 2.0 and tanking Ramuh with Titan Egi was a thing in 2.3, again well before the all warrior T1.

The time it took had nothing to do with player skill. People were trying far zanier stuff well before that point. The limit was simply having enough HP and doing enough damage. T1 wasn't a complex fight in the slightest. It just started hitting really really hard as the fight progressed on. That was the barrier.

[Keichi]

1- They have the gear that is the BiS of the moment which is the bare minimun to enter Ultimate,

Isnt Bis a mix of the End Item lvl and some items before that (like, 630/610 for 6.3) to reach more liked numbers in certain area? So, it should be possible to make it with a higher item level.
And i practicly dont know anything about Ultimate. I didnt even knowed, that this existed , before 6.2 (or so), when that with the church came. You dont need max item lvl for savage. SO, i simply think, that you dont need max item level for Ultimate to.

2-The problem is not how easy a healer may have done that but that a 0 healer clear is even possible, we're talking about the hardest fights of the game and those should require all the resources a standard party has, let alone optimize one of the three pillars of the holy trinity out of the fight.

3-With research it means google how all the dungeons of the game can be done without healers so easily that the speedrun meta consist of 3 dps and 1 tank, at this point in the game the need of healer in normal dungeons is more symptom of skill issues rather than a neccesity of the content.

Yeah, it is questionable how they manage it.
But, It was only one group (or maybe yet a few groups) out of many.
The reason why i even sayed something was simply, because i dont see, why people are "crying" yet, because of it. It looks like, that they simply overreact for it.

Yes, it is the hardest content, where you should need all 3 classes (you allready need them in every content on every level from my experience, the tank will take to much dmg from the mobs, except, if he really take eachg group alone)

Yes, it is the hardest content and probally miles away from my league (i dont even do savage, it is to much of a pain for me^^). But, the dev need to make it so, that even that isnt to hard. So, that a higher numbers of groups can finish it. That can give room for some "maniacs"to even exceeded this challenge level with a "higher challenge level". And make things happen like this.

And even so, one group managed it. Why are know people "crying", that healers arent needed anymore in the game, when practicly everyone need them for every content? It isnt like in wow, where people searched for party member but say: "No clkass ..., they are to weak".
That is simply, what i dont understand.

And i even see it as a good case, that the important of healers are reduced. Simply for the fact, that it come allways bad, if a whole group fails, because of the failure of one/a few players (what is in most cases the position of the healer, because his heals are needed in most cases)

That is simply, what i asked.
Not truly, the details itself, of this one group or content.
It is the concept of this "problem" that i dont understand.

More dmg: Also the whole panda 2 is not true,

It was at the start of endwalker, where most people weared a mix of the class equipment, the unlimited stone equipment, the limited stone equipment and the raid equipment, where the multiple aoe attacks was at last sometimes to much to survive, if i wasnt at 100% as a BLM. And, whe had even 1 or 2 runs, where it wasnt possible to finish it, because the healer had to low equipment and wasnt able to heal us up.
And like you say: Shield healer. It come often enough, that you will onlöy have whm in your group, who dont have so many shields. And there weakness is, that the targets must be able to survive the dmg first, for beeing healed than. But, itz is not possible/hard, if the class has a weak defense. Shield healer are the opppsite, who increase the defense of the target and than heal them.

But, the same situation is more or less by spider Pandaemonium.
The phase, where he press his head again the arena is so dmg heavy, that i practicly can not survive it as a blm, if the healers arent healing constantly and fast at that time. Even with barrier, was i under my last 1/4 of hp constantly (maybe even only around 5/10%), while the healers healed constantly.
It is only a few seconds. But, the wish to give the healer more healing work to do, would mean (at last for my understanding) that this kind of situation would come much more. And that could mean, that classes like the blm (who haqs weak defense) would probally suffer more from that. And that is simply, what i want to think about it to.

A compromise would be, if it is more like in the third stormblood raid, where the boss reduce the hp of everyone and the healer need to heal this all up very fast. Or it would come to death. It hit all classes more or less equally (where only the classes without selfheal have a harder time).

The problem is that dealing damage is all what we do with a 2 button rotation because the game barely requires any healing, the cast of any half decent healer have over 80% of their GCD (and over 50% of their total acions) presses being the exact same button.

Yeah, ok, the 1/2 buttom thing can/is a little boring. But, the devs need to keep track of the numbers of buttons, that are used up (one reason, why some skills are cutted, when new ones comes).
And, a attack rotation could distracts from healing, what is the main job.
Maybe, they could realy cut some of the healing options, to give some one time extra attacks (like make the lily attack easier to use, or skills like flare and so on).
I mean, there are some healing skills, that are rarely used (at last i think so). As scholar, im i failing most of the time to see, when i even should use the seraphim. The normal heal spell or fairy skill is in most cases enough.
I even failed to understand for a year or longer, how to use this one skill, that make your barrier heal to a stronger normal heal (i allways thinked, it would heal myself, if i give the barrier to someone, what maked it useless, i only understand it with lvl 80 or in endwalker, that it healed my target more).

But, most of the healing/support spells now have some purpose. It could become hard to see, wich skills could be removed or merged, so, that the healers can have room for more attack spells.

Since you're a blm imagine that your whole rotation were just spamming blizzard 1 over and over and keeping thunder, that would suck right? that's the issue with healers.

Ähm, BLM. All whe are practicly doing is, shooting fire 4/1 over and over and keep thunder (with some short breaks to reg mp or keep the fire stacks^^, but even that is something, where i sometimes think, that the ice phase could be simply removed, and let us become whole fire mages^^). So, it is not so far away of healers (ok, whe have the void spells and flare speels in between^^).

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Yeah, ok, the 1/2 buttom thing can/is a little boring. But, the devs need to keep track of the numbers of buttons, that are used up (one reason, why some skills are cutted, when new ones comes).
And, a attack rotation could distracts from healing, what is the main job.
Maybe, they could realy cut some of the healing options, to give some one time extra attacks (like make the lily attack easier to use, or skills like flare and so on). [...]

[...]But, most of the healing/support spells now have some purpose. It could become hard to see, wich skills could be removed or merged, so, that the healers can have room for more attack spells.[...]

Frankly if said healer is still letting people die, it doesn't matter whether they get 1 button spam attack or 5197840-button rotation; they shouldn't even think about their damage buttons too rigorously and focus on getting good with their main task. These two are fundamentally different actions, they do not affect the beginner healer's ability to spam Medica II/Succor/Benefic II/Diagnosis if they want or need to. Should we make the tank i.e. a GNB get the same 1 button spam attack because their optimum rotation will distract them from pressing their Heart of Corundum/Heart of Light/other mits within their 30s/60s (mini)bursts? I know GNB mains (or any tank mains, really) will come at me with their pitchforks if I suggests this lmfao.

I'm definitely down to see a couple of healing tools being culled to make room for more damage actions though.

[...]Ähm, BLM. All whe are practicly doing is, shooting fire 4/1 over and over and keep thunder (with some short breaks to reg mp or keep the fire stacks^^, but even that is something, where i sometimes think, that the ice phase could be simply removed, and let us become whole fire mages^^). So, it is not so far away of healers (ok, whe have the void spells and flare speels in between^^).

BLM just have so many to watch when compared to healers, it's almost insulting to the former to even try compare imho.

• Majority of their casts are GCD-long, or longer, making it more imperative for them to preplan a route should they need to move for upcoming mechanics. Aetherial Manipulation exists to help with movement but it has its own nuances that needs to be recognized to be utilized properly.
• Instants are there but has to be planned accordingly (Sharpcast, Swift, Triple, Thundercloud, Firestarter, Xenoglossy). Coupled with the previous point, this translates to BLM having pretty limited room to weave their tools.
• They have a DoT, means another timer to watch that also comes with a proc rate (Thunder III & Thundercloud again).
• They also have to dedicate 30s to stay where they are every 2 minutes because Leyline, something that no other spellcasters in the game need to worry about.
• In some rarer cases, entering a shorter Astral Fire Phase being more beneficial than attempting a full phase, which means another layer of consideration to be made (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I could be misremembering something).

[Deceptus]

Pretty much the only thing that would require a healer:

Multiple Doom mechanics that are required to be Esuna'd at once (to prevent a bard from cleansing a single one)

[Silver-Strider]

Pretty much the only thing that would require a healer:

Multiple Doom mechanics that are required to be Esuna'd at once (to prevent a bard from cleansing a single one)

Unless the entire party gets Doom on the same timer, you can still cheese that.

[WaxSw]

Isnt Bis a mix of the End Item lvl and some items before that (like, 630/610 for 6.3) to reach more liked numbers in certain area? So, it should be possible to make it with a higher item level.
And i practicly dont know anything about Ultimate. I didnt even knowed, that this existed , before 6.2 (or so), when that with the church came. You dont need max item lvl for savage. SO, i simply think, that you dont need max item level for Ultimate to.

Then my advice would be to get more information, because talking about things you don't know only leads to conclussions that are not happening and provide nothing to the conversation, for example the whole assumption of getting higher level doesn't happen because ultimates are level synced content to the max ilv of the time they were released so you can't do them with higher item level (only change of expansion powercreep makes them easier), also its not content made to be cleared by the majority of players.

The reason why i even sayed something was simply, because i dont see, why people are "crying" yet, because of it. It looks like, that they simply overreact for it.

Because healers have barely anything to heal yet we've seen our kits being gutted for healing tools that are not needed and when we asked the devs why, we got told "go play ultimate", to then find out that every ultimate has been cleared with 1-0 healers meaning that the excuse of the devs to gut our kits is not there as not even the hardest content of the game require the full potential of healers (while it demands that potential from tanks and dps).

The problem is not that "just" one group did a no healer run of it, its that it happened when it never should have.

And even so, one group managed it. Why are know people "crying", that healers arent needed anymore in the game, when practicly everyone need them for every content?

BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT, all the normal content of the game and most of the extremes have been done without healers and healing requirements overall are not even at 1/10th of what a healer can pull (i,e dungeons barely ask for more than 2-3k hps when a single healer can go above 20k hps), unless a savage mechanic demands 2 healers as target all the fights have been cleared with 1-0 healers and every ultimate has seen 1-0 healer clears. Healers are not a necessity, they are just a safety net.

And i even see it as a good case, that the important of healers are reduced. Simply for the fact, that it come allways bad, if a whole group fails, because of the failure of one/a few players (what is in most cases the position of the healer, because his heals are needed in most cases)

Once again, the heals are not needed and in most of the content healer deaths don't really mean much, there are casters that can raise and the self sustain of tanks is so high they can solo almost all the content, besides if you are going to design the healer kit in a way that 80% of the buttons are heal related having fights that barely ask for their use is simply bad design.

Panda 2

No its not, unless you eat vuln ups/people missed the stack, with the BLM shield, the stacks could be survived without issue and if you ate vuln ups or people miss the stack then is not the healer's fault.

But, the same situation is more or less by spider Pandaemonium.
The phase, where he press his head again the arena is so dmg heavy, that i practicly can not survive it as a blm, if the healers arent healing constantly and fast at that time. Even with barrier, was i under my last 1/4 of hp constantly (maybe even only around 5/10%), while the healers healed constantly.

That's what a heal check is, if they were survivable without healers it woudn't be a check, it would a pityful joke, besides its only one mechanic, in the entirety of the fight and funnily enough it doesn't even hit that hard, is just that people frontload the mit/don't use it at all so that misses the last hits which are the truly damaging ones

It is only a few seconds. But, the wish to give the healer more healing work to do, would mean (at last for my understanding) that this kind of situation would come much more. And that could mean, that classes like the blm (who haqs weak defense) would probally suffer more from that. And that is simply, what i want to think about it to.

That is never gonna happen because healers have the same survivability as those clases so if they try to guarantee their survivability by healing, those lower defense/hp classes will survive too, besides, most of the mitigation is not on healer's hands so if they get one shotted it woudn't even be healers fault for the most part but also tank and dps fault (which, once again I repeat, we complained about that in the past tier where we had an increase in massive hits that could one shot lower sustain classes and inexperienced players were blaming healers when in reality it was a mit check so its not entirely on healer's hands)

Yeah, ok, the 1/2 buttom thing can/is a little boring. But, the devs need to keep track of the numbers of buttons, that are used up (one reason, why some skills are cutted, when new ones comes).
And, a attack rotation could distracts from healing, what is the main job.

Our "main" job is what we do the least, less than 30-20% of the total actions (gcds and ogcds) that we use are heal related ones and we do the most is dps, which is also part of our job too as dps checks can't be cleared without healer dps. Not only that but in the past healers had far more involved rotations and we healed just fine so that rotation doesn't have to get in the way of healing.

Ähm, BLM. All whe are practicly doing is, shooting fire 4/1 over and over and keep thunder

BLM has far more in the way they manage their gauge (mp), cast times, mobility tools, procs, non standard lines, etc. Its a job with so much depth that there are dozens of pages of lines talking about how to improve it, they are worlds apart from healers but let me show you something funny.



This is what a semi optimized blm did in week 1 of savage, do you see how fire 4+paradox aren't even 40% of their total actions?



This is what a healer rotation looks like, dosis alone has a higher percentage of the total actions than fire 4+paradox+thunder while having much less implications because its cast doesn't limit its usage (like fire 4), doesn't interact with the job gauges or times (like paradox) nor has any kind of proc poperty (like thunder). Blm its worlds apart from healers.

[IDontPetLalas]

I wish I had more than one upvote for your post WaxSw, well said

[ForsakenRoe]

Following on from Wax's banger post, here's what my week 1 clear of P11S looks like:

Anyone ever tells me I'm 'not really a healer, but a support player' after I use 31 Succors for safety is gonna find my ilvl 645 book going where the sun don't shine (also god bless expedient in that fight). Point is though, even with this maximum safety gameplay, and this very high amount of incoming damage on certain phases eg the stack markers, I'm still at 45% of my casts being Broil. And as we get gear and get better at the fight, that will only go up. There were several raidwide damages I used nothing but succor for, and it turns out we'd have lived through without the shield (pair/lightparty after Burnt Strikes), but I used the Succor there anyway, because believe it or not, in week 1 healers do put safety first while progging

[Renathras]

Kinda curious, your WHM did only half your damage, were they using a lot more heals and less attacks?

And you were playing the worst nukespammer of the Healers.

The only one who consistently tells you you're "not really a healer" is you. And I only do it [EDIT: say I think you'd prefer a true Support Job] when you wrongly call me a Sylphie despite the majority of my casts in fights being damage spells [EDIT: And/or when you say things about how you much prefer Support type gameplay options].

That said, I do agree that's a lot of casting of a single spell. You actually got a lot of use out of Ruin 2, looks like, as well?