What would prevent 0/1 Healer clears of content?

[MintnHoney]

What is the problem?

The problem is, that this situation of healers being able to be optimized out of the trinity, in a trinity-based MMO, is growing out of control. While there is casual play available, where your party composition really doesn't matter so long as there's even the littlest bit of competence, much of the graduated or more "fun" (battle) content relies on and requires greater levels of competence, coordination, and optimization in order to be completed. When it so happens that 1/3rd of the trinity is left out due to optimization, and achievable due to coordination and competence, then it effectively means that 1/3rd of said trinity can be made obsolete. Yet, this does not happen with the other 2/3rds of the trinity.

There was only one group who did it in one content.

Supposedly the hardest content in the game, which should, by all rights, require all of the trinity in a trinity-based game system. Furthermore, this is not the only content where this has been done. I suggest you take time to research this further before forming your opinion on the response to a single piece of content, because the responses that are coming in, if you take the time to comprehend them, are coming with perspectives across a wide scope of content.

Who even sacreficed the freedom of free class choice, for substituted the missing healer.

It's more accurate to believe that this was done due to freedom of choice. In other words, because they desired to, they played without the healer role and succeeded.

They even had healer in Form of 3 paladin.

Actually, all of the jobs on the team had some form of ability to provide healing and/or support for the party, which is part of the issue regarding FFXIV's balance amongst the trinity. In my opinion this sort of balance could be a good thing if only it wasn't at the total exclusion and expense of 4 jobs/1 role.

Also, to be clear, it was 2 Paladins, 1 Warrior, 1 Monk, 1 Reaper, 1 Red Mage, 1 Dancer, and 1 Summoner. If you're trying to make an assessment of a situation, I suggest you start by keeping track of the situation's basic facts. Use references if needed.
Edit: Although, if there was yet another team that completed the content without healers, and it happened to have 3 paladins, then it would just further prove that this is not so impossible because there would be more groups achieving this.

Yeah, maybe it can suck, if the healer isnt needed that much. But, that is nothing that can truly changed, without make it bad for other roles or the whole group.

So basically: "it's ok if the healer role has a bad time, aren't fun, and can be ignored, because it makes my favored role more fun."

"Let make the Boss more dmg" = can easly create frustration. Classes with weaker defense could easily be one shoted or two hitted with that.

If you are unfamiliar, this has been the general strategy with a majority of content more advanced than the general MSQ: one-shot mechanics, high-damage abilities, or mechanics that cause certain death, which need to be avoided or be taken on the Tank (keeping 1/3rd of that trinity relevant for as long as they can). This strategy isn't usually employed in story dungeons beyond the Tank needing to keep enmity, so if that's your concern, you can be sure that we have years and expansions to prove that this can (and will) remain unchanged.

With regards to more difficult content, there is actually a lot of discussion that can be found in the Healer Role forum, among other places, where the conclusion has been made that simply increasing damage dealt would not be enough unless other changes were implemented at the same time. If you're really wanting to get into this conversation, I advise you to read up on this discussion by investigating other threads.

Ok, this problem are reduced, once the player have the higher item lvl. But, the problem would be more, until the Player reached that point

This is called progression. It's part of the game's design to work that way, and it is a good thing when implemented by the developers and utilized by the players correctly.
You do things, you get numbers, you get equipment that gets you bigger numbers, and those bigger numbers continue to get bigger. These numbers all factor into your spreadsheet, your character, and shows that you are progressing (and, if this is implemented well and utilized correctly, is an introductory glance of your potential competency and capabilities). Tackling challenges that are too great may mean that you need to return to that challenge in the future, when your numbers are bigger or additional practice and experience has been acquired.
It isn't usually an accurate measure of a player's total potential, but getting to those numbers usually means you have met the pre-requisites required to at least be numerically eligible to complete the content in question so long as you have the competency for it.

It is not even the case, that they are not needed. In dungeon are they important for the mob, before you reach the Boss. And like i sayed a little above, are they needed yet for the New content (esspecial second raid).

There is much footage out on youtube or other video sharing services that prove your statements to be wrong. Again, I advise you to research this topic more.

Healers are helpful for those cases where the players involved are lacking for skill or equipment, but a majority of the basic story dungeon content has been simplified and streamlined to accommodate for the lowest of skill levels, so that only extreme lack of one or the other or both would cause an actual need for healers' competency. As of Endwalker, at the very least, many of the mistakes you have witnessed (or will witness) regarding healers and their ability to utilize their healing properly, is generally going to be because they are not prepared for situations where their healing is truly necessary for survival/success. This runs especially true if the healer only plays through the story, as it is not designed to require healing as an absolute necessity if other tactics are employed.

But, it is good, if they important is reduced.

It would be good if it was because they were being brought in line with the importance of other jobs/roles in terms of importance, but that's not what's happening.
Because the level of importance can be diminished to the point of making them obsolete, this is a bad thing. It means that there is something wrong with the game's design, whether that be because of job balance, battle design, or encounter design, it is a failure of the game.

It sucks, if the succes is based mostly about, if one or two Player (or 6 by the big raids) plays right.

Yeah, it does suck. It's not fun when someone is more important, during play time with multiple people, than others.
But you say that, despising that healers could be that important, and then you say

I can not count, how many times the healer died by the end dungeons of endwalker, last year. It happens so often, that my tank Partner and i maked allready fun about it. And whe was mostly only able to finish the fights, because the tank was a paladin, who healed me or protected me for the big dmg attacks.

So why is it that the situation only sucks if the healer is important? Why is it that you don't believe the situation sucks when other jobs are the only ones that were necessary to succeed?

I know why, I'm sure others know why. I know Semirhage, among at least 7 other frequent posters, can come up with at least 7 different and amusing ways to describe it.
I recommend that you take a moment to reflect on your personal bias before that happens, if it does.

One time when i played white mage

So all of this to say that the healer role, and its players, should be allowed to be irrelevant to the game because you had an experience where you could not complete content as a healer, and also had other experiences where healers made mistakes (and you made fun of them for it, despite that you admitted that you were not able to do any better). You think it's unfair and unfun for the other party members, particularly the DD and your friend, the Tank, if the healer's capability needs to be factored into your team-based gameplay in order for you to succeed.
You're that kind of DPS player. Good to know.

[UkcsAlias]

Supposedly the hardest content in the game, which should, by all rights, require all of the trinity in a trinity-based game system.

With a flaw though, and a flaw many games have: players can optimize certain requirements out of a game. Why bother taking a health stat in an single player RPG when you arent supposed to get hit? Its why games like dark souls exist, as they simply try to get players to never invest in stats you arent supposed to use.

Difficulty in this game is generaly dodging mechanics, and outside of that dealing as much damage as possible. It nearly always has been, healers were only required because most players simply arent good enough to not have one in the team.

The real issue isnt even that its possible. Hell, if people want to do that, go ahead and have fun. Its at the same level of using 4 blue mages in that things can change a lot when you are chaning the format. The issue is that its in theory more optimal to do, and therefor puts a focus onto optimizing healers out of the group. That is what makes it bad. This can only be resolved by making healers mandatory, either through matchmaking, or through mechanics. Mechanics on that have the issue of outgearing.

That it happens now... thats fine, they at least now know that in the future they realy need to focus more towards healers in balance. If it happens every time, then sadly no matter how difficult they call this content, its not as difficult as it could be, and therefor devalues the achievement.

Forcing healers into the party is needed because it has a desired side effect since any healer you optimize out of the team allows higher dps, and makes the challenge easier. So making the healer mandatory keeps the requirements strict. Even if the healer is pressing only 1, its reduced dps will still be noticed.

[ASkellington]

This can only be resolved by making healers mandatory, either through matchmaking, or through mechanics.

Healers are mandatory in DF. Its why FFXIV doesn't have the issue ESO has where dps can and DO replace healers (and even tanks).

Where ESO succeeds slightly and FFXIV is the last part of your sentance: ESO has heal checks made specifically for healers that fake healers who aren't properly built in stats can't achieve.

Maybe in dungeons, but not in raids. There's always one.

And no. Ultimate should not EVER be able to drop healers. Its the hardest content in the game. It should be testing all 3 roles. Period. Its the whole reason why the content exists.

[ForsakenRoe]

Good news, Harrowing Hell hurts like, well, hell, in Week 1 gear. Bad news, getting BIS will likely make it way way less threatening. Also some groups are electing to just Tank LB it, and tbh, fair enough it's a valid approach (thankfully not ours because we ended up needing the healer LB right after). I maintain my original position, having progged as SCH, but clearing on WHM (a friend plays SGE and we went together): 'Heal checks' like this, where we have to mitigate a lot and spam heals, are only fun as the mit-focused healer. As SCH, I was having to consider that 'Expedient is 20s I can pop that right away. Soil is only 15 so I should hold it for a bit, else it'll fall off before the end of the phase. Also, Seraph, or Dissipation? I'll use every fairy skill, then Dissipate, as the potency gained from using more than 5 GCDs outweighs the potency of 2 Consolations'. For WHM, it was 'Press Temperance as castbar ends. Spam Lilies until out, then Cure3. Use Lilybell after 4 smashes.'

Once again, a 'heal check' that is actually just 'mit check', the check being 'did you press every mit across your entire team' this time. And yet at other parts of the fight, I found myself, as SCH, with Aetherflow ready and either 1 or 2 stacks left over unused from the previous set (no dissipation uses), meaning that while Harrowing is very healing intensive, there's spaces in the fight that just... aren't. Even in week 1 gear. It's very strange

[Semirhage]

I haven't touched Savage yet (disorganized static noises) but I'm already groaning and whipping out the old Bingo card at the guide videos. For this fight, you'll need clock positions, partner stacks, and light parties which go East and West. Drop the waymarks 1 A 2 B 3 C 4 D in a circle. The fight opens with a raidwide, so mitigate and heal. Then there's a tankbuster which requires a tank swap.

Quick, which fight did I describe? Eeeefffffff me I wish they shake this paint-by-numbers design up, the casualization of Savage is choking the life out of encounter design and the dogpoop job design isn't enough to make it entertaining by itself.

[Sparkthor]

To be honest with the 1st question, nothing will prevent content to be cleared without heal, because no matter what they do, people will try and succeed into making run with 1 or no healer. DPS is always the role speed runner want the most, tanks are easily mandatory because all dps die in 2 auto from bosses and cannot stand TB, so 1 tank would lead into many inevitable deaths which are far worse than everything.

Healer on the downside double struggle with better ilvl, then people take less dommage and healer heal more. And nothing would change this.

If we can find root issue, it's FFXIV classic roles which tend to extend from their initial roles : DPS mitig and some bring some heal. Tank is heavy mitig and some heal. And healer is heal, mitig and dps. Role are less strict, But as healer are the only one who get heal on demand, they somehow act as safety net, as they are nearly the only who can save people then they do mistakes.

But i disagree when people say they are useless, it's not because some top crazy people can clear some hardest content without it means they are useless. Nearly all content could be cleared without DPS, what doesn't mean they are useless.

[IDontPetLalas]

To be honest with the 1st question, nothing will prevent content to be cleared without heal, because no matter what they do, people will try and succeed into making run with 1 or no healer. DPS is always the role speed runner want the most, tanks are easily mandatory because all dps die in 2 auto from bosses and cannot stand TB, so 1 tank would lead into many inevitable deaths which are far worse than everything.

Healer on the downside double struggle with better ilvl, then people take less dommage and healer heal more. And nothing would change this.

If we can find root issue, it's FFXIV classic roles which tend to extend from their initial roles : DPS mitig and some bring some heal. Tank is heavy mitig and some heal. And healer is heal, mitig and dps. Role are less strict, But as healer are the only one who get heal on demand, they somehow act as safety net, as they are nearly the only who can save people then they do mistakes.

But i disagree when people say they are useless, it's not because some top crazy people can clear some hardest content without it means they are useless. Nearly all content could be cleared without DPS, what doesn't mean they are useless.

Let's just look at your last line. I would agree that there is *some* content that can be cleared without DPS, for example there have been all-tank Nier runs, there have been all healer-Nier clears. Any job can even solo some prior patch content. However can you point to some examples where parties would routinely form without a DPS ?

Also, I would add that I don't believe that anyone would see these as "crazy" people- rather they are people who first of all are among the best players but secondly are smart enough and skilled enough to take advantage both of this fight design and each job's skills. In a sense they should in no way be faulted as it was SE who designed both the fight and the jobs.

[Silver-Strider]

I haven't touched Savage yet (disorganized static noises) but I'm already groaning and whipping out the old Bingo card at the guide videos. For this fight, you'll need clock positions, partner stacks, and light parties which go East and West. Drop the waymarks 1 A 2 B 3 C 4 D in a circle. The fight opens with a raidwide, so mitigate and heal. Then there's a tankbuster which requires a tank swap.

Quick, which fight did I describe? Eeeefffffff me I wish they shake this paint-by-numbers design up, the casualization of Savage is choking the life out of encounter design and the dogpoop job design isn't enough to make it entertaining by itself.

I await the day SE just becomes unhinged and opens the boss with the 10 hit Akh Morn that combos in a Double tank Buster midway thru

[Keichi]

...

(text to long)

1) Group:
I only saw a short part of the clip and didnt had big attention to the group. I have the opinion, that i saw 3 paladin and multiple summoner/red mages. But it is possible that i was wrong.
But, it didnt change the point, that they needed substitute for the healer. Healers would probally maked it easier. And, is it even knowed, what geard they have? Shouldnt it become much easier, if they had max lvl items and materia in there?
And what research? I dont watch, what other are doing. I see it the whole time in normal dungeons and the normal raids, that healer are needed. Player take all the time dmg from enemy. Tanks need the healer to make the big pulls in dungeon (i dont even are confident in doing big pulls as a tank, even, when i have a high item lvl and it is a early dungeon, and see it from time to time, how tanks simply pulled to much).

2) More dmg.
What you say are the avoidable dmg. Like aoe or the bots from Nier Raid, that the tank has to take. I know, that they are doing big dmg or instant deat allready.
I speaked from the unavoidable attacks. Like roars, waves (as aoe) or player targeted attacks (without sharing option). Like the spider net from the Pandaemonium raid.
Because, that are the only attacks, where the dev could increase the dmg (because, the avoidable are allready making nearly or mostly instant kills).

And, that would suck for classes with lower defense, because, they are allready hurted badly by the big aoe attacks. Some of them can even only survive, if they have 100% hp or barriers activ (what is not allways the case). By pandae 02 was it even impossible for me as Black mage to survive the unavoidable aoe attack, if i wasnt at 100% hp or was healed at the same time from the healer. And that even with the BLM barrier skill. Because, the boss simply used multiple roars in a short time, where the first roar was allready enough to break the barrier. I was mostly forced to play as a monk (my main meele at that time) by him. Until the black mage had the max item lvl of that time (and even than hurted it big).

The healer would have to do more healing, if the bosses simply make more dmg. Yes. But, at the cost that other classes (mostly Caster, i dont even know, how good whm would survive that) would "cry" at the same time.

[Keichi]

(part 2)

So basically: "it's ok if the healer role has a bad time, aren't fun, and can be ignored, because it makes my favored role more fun."

I dont even understand this part. Why should the healer have bad times? Isnt it good, to make dmg to? Or have breaks from healing to recover your mp? I like it each time, if i have a break from he3aling and can attack in the time between the healings.
When shopuld healer ven do dmg (because some player want more attack option for healer) if they are the whole time busy with healing.

There is probally a big difference in the playstile of healer. Or, what they want (i like healers for beeing able to rescue or help other people, but, i like it to to make dmg)

This runs especially true if the healer only plays through the story, as it is not designed to require healing as an absolute necessity if other tactics are employed.

Esspecial in msq dungeoion are healer needed. Because the tank wouldnt survive the big/bigger pulls, without a healer. He is lesser needed by the boss thereself. But, the enemy between the bosses is, where the healer has to work (at last had i to work, when whe run the 80-89er ini).

So why is it that the situation only sucks if the healer is important?

Simply: That is not the case.
It didnt suck only, if the healer is important. But, because the healer is important did it suck the most, if he fails.
Tank and Dd`s can make mistakes and fails to, yes. But, it can be possible to recover from that situation without a wipe, if the healer is fast enough to ress. Or, if the survived member did fast enough the needed dmg (or the DD seperate the monster from the group, probally sacrefice himself but give the healer the time to heal the tank).

But: That is the rarest case, if the healer dies. Esspecial by bosses. And, because the role of the healer is mostly used by only one or 2 player, are they the one, who are noticed the most, if they die.