What would prevent 0/1 Healer clears of content?

[MintnHoney]

What is the problem?

The problem is, that this situation of healers being able to be optimized out of the trinity, in a trinity-based MMO, is growing out of control. While there is casual play available, where your party composition really doesn't matter so long as there's even the littlest bit of competence, much of the graduated or more "fun" (battle) content relies on and requires greater levels of competence, coordination, and optimization in order to be completed. When it so happens that 1/3rd of the trinity is left out due to optimization, and achievable due to coordination and competence, then it effectively means that 1/3rd of said trinity can be made obsolete. Yet, this does not happen with the other 2/3rds of the trinity.

There was only one group who did it in one content.

Supposedly the hardest content in the game, which should, by all rights, require all of the trinity in a trinity-based game system. Furthermore, this is not the only content where this has been done. I suggest you take time to research this further before forming your opinion on the response to a single piece of content, because the responses that are coming in, if you take the time to comprehend them, are coming with perspectives across a wide scope of content.

Who even sacreficed the freedom of free class choice, for substituted the missing healer.

It's more accurate to believe that this was done due to freedom of choice. In other words, because they desired to, they played without the healer role and succeeded.

They even had healer in Form of 3 paladin.

Actually, all of the jobs on the team had some form of ability to provide healing and/or support for the party, which is part of the issue regarding FFXIV's balance amongst the trinity. In my opinion this sort of balance could be a good thing if only it wasn't at the total exclusion and expense of 4 jobs/1 role.

Also, to be clear, it was 2 Paladins, 1 Warrior, 1 Monk, 1 Reaper, 1 Red Mage, 1 Dancer, and 1 Summoner. If you're trying to make an assessment of a situation, I suggest you start by keeping track of the situation's basic facts. Use references if needed.
Edit: Although, if there was yet another team that completed the content without healers, and it happened to have 3 paladins, then it would just further prove that this is not so impossible because there would be more groups achieving this.

Yeah, maybe it can suck, if the healer isnt needed that much. But, that is nothing that can truly changed, without make it bad for other roles or the whole group.

So basically: "it's ok if the healer role has a bad time, aren't fun, and can be ignored, because it makes my favored role more fun."

"Let make the Boss more dmg" = can easly create frustration. Classes with weaker defense could easily be one shoted or two hitted with that.

If you are unfamiliar, this has been the general strategy with a majority of content more advanced than the general MSQ: one-shot mechanics, high-damage abilities, or mechanics that cause certain death, which need to be avoided or be taken on the Tank (keeping 1/3rd of that trinity relevant for as long as they can). This strategy isn't usually employed in story dungeons beyond the Tank needing to keep enmity, so if that's your concern, you can be sure that we have years and expansions to prove that this can (and will) remain unchanged.

With regards to more difficult content, there is actually a lot of discussion that can be found in the Healer Role forum, among other places, where the conclusion has been made that simply increasing damage dealt would not be enough unless other changes were implemented at the same time. If you're really wanting to get into this conversation, I advise you to read up on this discussion by investigating other threads.

Ok, this problem are reduced, once the player have the higher item lvl. But, the problem would be more, until the Player reached that point

This is called progression. It's part of the game's design to work that way, and it is a good thing when implemented by the developers and utilized by the players correctly.
You do things, you get numbers, you get equipment that gets you bigger numbers, and those bigger numbers continue to get bigger. These numbers all factor into your spreadsheet, your character, and shows that you are progressing (and, if this is implemented well and utilized correctly, is an introductory glance of your potential competency and capabilities). Tackling challenges that are too great may mean that you need to return to that challenge in the future, when your numbers are bigger or additional practice and experience has been acquired.
It isn't usually an accurate measure of a player's total potential, but getting to those numbers usually means you have met the pre-requisites required to at least be numerically eligible to complete the content in question so long as you have the competency for it.

It is not even the case, that they are not needed. In dungeon are they important for the mob, before you reach the Boss. And like i sayed a little above, are they needed yet for the New content (esspecial second raid).

There is much footage out on youtube or other video sharing services that prove your statements to be wrong. Again, I advise you to research this topic more.

Healers are helpful for those cases where the players involved are lacking for skill or equipment, but a majority of the basic story dungeon content has been simplified and streamlined to accommodate for the lowest of skill levels, so that only extreme lack of one or the other or both would cause an actual need for healers' competency. As of Endwalker, at the very least, many of the mistakes you have witnessed (or will witness) regarding healers and their ability to utilize their healing properly, is generally going to be because they are not prepared for situations where their healing is truly necessary for survival/success. This runs especially true if the healer only plays through the story, as it is not designed to require healing as an absolute necessity if other tactics are employed.

But, it is good, if they important is reduced.

It would be good if it was because they were being brought in line with the importance of other jobs/roles in terms of importance, but that's not what's happening.
Because the level of importance can be diminished to the point of making them obsolete, this is a bad thing. It means that there is something wrong with the game's design, whether that be because of job balance, battle design, or encounter design, it is a failure of the game.

It sucks, if the succes is based mostly about, if one or two Player (or 6 by the big raids) plays right.

Yeah, it does suck. It's not fun when someone is more important, during play time with multiple people, than others.
But you say that, despising that healers could be that important, and then you say

I can not count, how many times the healer died by the end dungeons of endwalker, last year. It happens so often, that my tank Partner and i maked allready fun about it. And whe was mostly only able to finish the fights, because the tank was a paladin, who healed me or protected me for the big dmg attacks.

So why is it that the situation only sucks if the healer is important? Why is it that you don't believe the situation sucks when other jobs are the only ones that were necessary to succeed?

I know why, I'm sure others know why. I know Semirhage, among at least 7 other frequent posters, can come up with at least 7 different and amusing ways to describe it.
I recommend that you take a moment to reflect on your personal bias before that happens, if it does.

One time when i played white mage

So all of this to say that the healer role, and its players, should be allowed to be irrelevant to the game because you had an experience where you could not complete content as a healer, and also had other experiences where healers made mistakes (and you made fun of them for it, despite that you admitted that you were not able to do any better). You think it's unfair and unfun for the other party members, particularly the DD and your friend, the Tank, if the healer's capability needs to be factored into your team-based gameplay in order for you to succeed.
You're that kind of DPS player. Good to know.

[UkcsAlias]

Supposedly the hardest content in the game, which should, by all rights, require all of the trinity in a trinity-based game system.

With a flaw though, and a flaw many games have: players can optimize certain requirements out of a game. Why bother taking a health stat in an single player RPG when you arent supposed to get hit? Its why games like dark souls exist, as they simply try to get players to never invest in stats you arent supposed to use.

Difficulty in this game is generaly dodging mechanics, and outside of that dealing as much damage as possible. It nearly always has been, healers were only required because most players simply arent good enough to not have one in the team.

The real issue isnt even that its possible. Hell, if people want to do that, go ahead and have fun. Its at the same level of using 4 blue mages in that things can change a lot when you are chaning the format. The issue is that its in theory more optimal to do, and therefor puts a focus onto optimizing healers out of the group. That is what makes it bad. This can only be resolved by making healers mandatory, either through matchmaking, or through mechanics. Mechanics on that have the issue of outgearing.

That it happens now... thats fine, they at least now know that in the future they realy need to focus more towards healers in balance. If it happens every time, then sadly no matter how difficult they call this content, its not as difficult as it could be, and therefor devalues the achievement.

Forcing healers into the party is needed because it has a desired side effect since any healer you optimize out of the team allows higher dps, and makes the challenge easier. So making the healer mandatory keeps the requirements strict. Even if the healer is pressing only 1, its reduced dps will still be noticed.

[ASkellington]

This can only be resolved by making healers mandatory, either through matchmaking, or through mechanics.

Healers are mandatory in DF. Its why FFXIV doesn't have the issue ESO has where dps can and DO replace healers (and even tanks).

Where ESO succeeds slightly and FFXIV is the last part of your sentance: ESO has heal checks made specifically for healers that fake healers who aren't properly built in stats can't achieve.

Maybe in dungeons, but not in raids. There's always one.

And no. Ultimate should not EVER be able to drop healers. Its the hardest content in the game. It should be testing all 3 roles. Period. Its the whole reason why the content exists.

[Keichi]

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1) Group:
I only saw a short part of the clip and didnt had big attention to the group. I have the opinion, that i saw 3 paladin and multiple summoner/red mages. But it is possible that i was wrong.
But, it didnt change the point, that they needed substitute for the healer. Healers would probally maked it easier. And, is it even knowed, what geard they have? Shouldnt it become much easier, if they had max lvl items and materia in there?
And what research? I dont watch, what other are doing. I see it the whole time in normal dungeons and the normal raids, that healer are needed. Player take all the time dmg from enemy. Tanks need the healer to make the big pulls in dungeon (i dont even are confident in doing big pulls as a tank, even, when i have a high item lvl and it is a early dungeon, and see it from time to time, how tanks simply pulled to much).

2) More dmg.
What you say are the avoidable dmg. Like aoe or the bots from Nier Raid, that the tank has to take. I know, that they are doing big dmg or instant deat allready.
I speaked from the unavoidable attacks. Like roars, waves (as aoe) or player targeted attacks (without sharing option). Like the spider net from the Pandaemonium raid.
Because, that are the only attacks, where the dev could increase the dmg (because, the avoidable are allready making nearly or mostly instant kills).

And, that would suck for classes with lower defense, because, they are allready hurted badly by the big aoe attacks. Some of them can even only survive, if they have 100% hp or barriers activ (what is not allways the case). By pandae 02 was it even impossible for me as Black mage to survive the unavoidable aoe attack, if i wasnt at 100% hp or was healed at the same time from the healer. And that even with the BLM barrier skill. Because, the boss simply used multiple roars in a short time, where the first roar was allready enough to break the barrier. I was mostly forced to play as a monk (my main meele at that time) by him. Until the black mage had the max item lvl of that time (and even than hurted it big).

The healer would have to do more healing, if the bosses simply make more dmg. Yes. But, at the cost that other classes (mostly Caster, i dont even know, how good whm would survive that) would "cry" at the same time.

[WaxSw]

(text to long)

1) Group:
I only saw a short part of the clip and didnt had big attention to the group. I have the opinion, that i saw 3 paladin and multiple summoner/red mages. But it is possible that i was wrong.
But, it didnt change the point, that they needed substitute for the healer. Healers would probally maked it easier. And, is it even knowed, what geard they have? Shouldnt it become much easier, if they had max lvl items and materia in there?
And what research? I dont watch, what other are doing. I see it the whole time in normal dungeons and the normal raids, that healer are needed. Player take all the time dmg from enemy. Tanks need the healer to make the big pulls in dungeon (i dont even are confident in doing big pulls as a tank, even, when i have a high item lvl and it is a early dungeon, and see it from time to time, how tanks simply pulled to much).

1- They have the gear that is the BiS of the moment which is the bare minimun to enter Ultimate, honestly if you don't even know that being BiS is basically a requirement to even enter the instance I don't think you're knowledgeable enough to have an informed opinion about the issue. You simply CAN'T outgear a ultimate in their release patch

2-The problem is not how easy a healer may have done that but that a 0 healer clear is even possible, we're talking about the hardest fights of the game and those should require all the resources a standard party has, let alone optimize one of the three pillars of the holy trinity out of the fight.

3-With research it means google how all the dungeons of the game can be done without healers so easily that the speedrun meta consist of 3 dps and 1 tank, at this point in the game the need of healer in normal dungeons is more symptom of skill issues rather than a neccesity of the content.

More dmg: He was talking about unavoidable damage, just this last savage tier we had a spike in hits that required mitigation to survive which caused troubles because all of the reasons MintnHoney said. Also the whole panda 2 is not true, not even savage on day 1 (and I know because I was there) required that much healing so either you lied on the damage or you were massively undergeared because I think you were talking about normal and normal mode could be done without any kind of shield on lv90 gear easily, only the stacks required a tiny bit of mitigation (10% or so) to be comfortable which is a given considering every shield healer has one readily available and that the damage overall was so low compared to the myriad of tools healers have that just a single healer could top the party to full before the next raidwide.

I dont even understand this part. Why should the healer have bad times? Isnt it good, to make dmg to? Or have breaks from healing to recover your mp? I like it each time, if i have a break from he3aling and can attack in the time between the healings.

The problem is that dealing damage is all what we do with a 2 button rotation because the game barely requires any healing, the cast of any half decent healer have over 80% of their GCD (and over 50% of their total acions) presses being the exact same button. Since you're a blm imagine that your whole rotation were just spamming blizzard 1 over and over and keeping thunder, that would suck right? that's the issue with healers.

Honestly I suggest you to go read around the forum as your comments tell me you're really disinformed about the healer gameplay, its problems and complaints, because things like the whole idea of healers being needed to clear dungeons have been proven wrong long time ago (with multiple proof in fact, all dungeons can be cleared without healer, especially past lv 56) and there are other things you don't seem to undertand (like the whole stuff around what 1-0 ultimate clear means, the gameplay gutting etc...)

[Keichi]

1- They have the gear that is the BiS of the moment which is the bare minimun to enter Ultimate,

Isnt Bis a mix of the End Item lvl and some items before that (like, 630/610 for 6.3) to reach more liked numbers in certain area? So, it should be possible to make it with a higher item level.
And i practicly dont know anything about Ultimate. I didnt even knowed, that this existed , before 6.2 (or so), when that with the church came. You dont need max item lvl for savage. SO, i simply think, that you dont need max item level for Ultimate to.

2-The problem is not how easy a healer may have done that but that a 0 healer clear is even possible, we're talking about the hardest fights of the game and those should require all the resources a standard party has, let alone optimize one of the three pillars of the holy trinity out of the fight.

3-With research it means google how all the dungeons of the game can be done without healers so easily that the speedrun meta consist of 3 dps and 1 tank, at this point in the game the need of healer in normal dungeons is more symptom of skill issues rather than a neccesity of the content.

Yeah, it is questionable how they manage it.
But, It was only one group (or maybe yet a few groups) out of many.
The reason why i even sayed something was simply, because i dont see, why people are "crying" yet, because of it. It looks like, that they simply overreact for it.

Yes, it is the hardest content, where you should need all 3 classes (you allready need them in every content on every level from my experience, the tank will take to much dmg from the mobs, except, if he really take eachg group alone)

Yes, it is the hardest content and probally miles away from my league (i dont even do savage, it is to much of a pain for me^^). But, the dev need to make it so, that even that isnt to hard. So, that a higher numbers of groups can finish it. That can give room for some "maniacs"to even exceeded this challenge level with a "higher challenge level". And make things happen like this.

And even so, one group managed it. Why are know people "crying", that healers arent needed anymore in the game, when practicly everyone need them for every content? It isnt like in wow, where people searched for party member but say: "No clkass ..., they are to weak".
That is simply, what i dont understand.

And i even see it as a good case, that the important of healers are reduced. Simply for the fact, that it come allways bad, if a whole group fails, because of the failure of one/a few players (what is in most cases the position of the healer, because his heals are needed in most cases)

That is simply, what i asked.
Not truly, the details itself, of this one group or content.
It is the concept of this "problem" that i dont understand.

More dmg: Also the whole panda 2 is not true,

It was at the start of endwalker, where most people weared a mix of the class equipment, the unlimited stone equipment, the limited stone equipment and the raid equipment, where the multiple aoe attacks was at last sometimes to much to survive, if i wasnt at 100% as a BLM. And, whe had even 1 or 2 runs, where it wasnt possible to finish it, because the healer had to low equipment and wasnt able to heal us up.
And like you say: Shield healer. It come often enough, that you will onlöy have whm in your group, who dont have so many shields. And there weakness is, that the targets must be able to survive the dmg first, for beeing healed than. But, itz is not possible/hard, if the class has a weak defense. Shield healer are the opppsite, who increase the defense of the target and than heal them.

But, the same situation is more or less by spider Pandaemonium.
The phase, where he press his head again the arena is so dmg heavy, that i practicly can not survive it as a blm, if the healers arent healing constantly and fast at that time. Even with barrier, was i under my last 1/4 of hp constantly (maybe even only around 5/10%), while the healers healed constantly.
It is only a few seconds. But, the wish to give the healer more healing work to do, would mean (at last for my understanding) that this kind of situation would come much more. And that could mean, that classes like the blm (who haqs weak defense) would probally suffer more from that. And that is simply, what i want to think about it to.

A compromise would be, if it is more like in the third stormblood raid, where the boss reduce the hp of everyone and the healer need to heal this all up very fast. Or it would come to death. It hit all classes more or less equally (where only the classes without selfheal have a harder time).

The problem is that dealing damage is all what we do with a 2 button rotation because the game barely requires any healing, the cast of any half decent healer have over 80% of their GCD (and over 50% of their total acions) presses being the exact same button.

Yeah, ok, the 1/2 buttom thing can/is a little boring. But, the devs need to keep track of the numbers of buttons, that are used up (one reason, why some skills are cutted, when new ones comes).
And, a attack rotation could distracts from healing, what is the main job.
Maybe, they could realy cut some of the healing options, to give some one time extra attacks (like make the lily attack easier to use, or skills like flare and so on).
I mean, there are some healing skills, that are rarely used (at last i think so). As scholar, im i failing most of the time to see, when i even should use the seraphim. The normal heal spell or fairy skill is in most cases enough.
I even failed to understand for a year or longer, how to use this one skill, that make your barrier heal to a stronger normal heal (i allways thinked, it would heal myself, if i give the barrier to someone, what maked it useless, i only understand it with lvl 80 or in endwalker, that it healed my target more).

But, most of the healing/support spells now have some purpose. It could become hard to see, wich skills could be removed or merged, so, that the healers can have room for more attack spells.

Since you're a blm imagine that your whole rotation were just spamming blizzard 1 over and over and keeping thunder, that would suck right? that's the issue with healers.

Ähm, BLM. All whe are practicly doing is, shooting fire 4/1 over and over and keep thunder (with some short breaks to reg mp or keep the fire stacks^^, but even that is something, where i sometimes think, that the ice phase could be simply removed, and let us become whole fire mages^^). So, it is not so far away of healers (ok, whe have the void spells and flare speels in between^^).

[ForsakenRoe]

Good news, Harrowing Hell hurts like, well, hell, in Week 1 gear. Bad news, getting BIS will likely make it way way less threatening. Also some groups are electing to just Tank LB it, and tbh, fair enough it's a valid approach (thankfully not ours because we ended up needing the healer LB right after). I maintain my original position, having progged as SCH, but clearing on WHM (a friend plays SGE and we went together): 'Heal checks' like this, where we have to mitigate a lot and spam heals, are only fun as the mit-focused healer. As SCH, I was having to consider that 'Expedient is 20s I can pop that right away. Soil is only 15 so I should hold it for a bit, else it'll fall off before the end of the phase. Also, Seraph, or Dissipation? I'll use every fairy skill, then Dissipate, as the potency gained from using more than 5 GCDs outweighs the potency of 2 Consolations'. For WHM, it was 'Press Temperance as castbar ends. Spam Lilies until out, then Cure3. Use Lilybell after 4 smashes.'

Once again, a 'heal check' that is actually just 'mit check', the check being 'did you press every mit across your entire team' this time. And yet at other parts of the fight, I found myself, as SCH, with Aetherflow ready and either 1 or 2 stacks left over unused from the previous set (no dissipation uses), meaning that while Harrowing is very healing intensive, there's spaces in the fight that just... aren't. Even in week 1 gear. It's very strange

[Semirhage]

I haven't touched Savage yet (disorganized static noises) but I'm already groaning and whipping out the old Bingo card at the guide videos. For this fight, you'll need clock positions, partner stacks, and light parties which go East and West. Drop the waymarks 1 A 2 B 3 C 4 D in a circle. The fight opens with a raidwide, so mitigate and heal. Then there's a tankbuster which requires a tank swap.

Quick, which fight did I describe? Eeeefffffff me I wish they shake this paint-by-numbers design up, the casualization of Savage is choking the life out of encounter design and the dogpoop job design isn't enough to make it entertaining by itself.

[Silver-Strider]

I haven't touched Savage yet (disorganized static noises) but I'm already groaning and whipping out the old Bingo card at the guide videos. For this fight, you'll need clock positions, partner stacks, and light parties which go East and West. Drop the waymarks 1 A 2 B 3 C 4 D in a circle. The fight opens with a raidwide, so mitigate and heal. Then there's a tankbuster which requires a tank swap.

Quick, which fight did I describe? Eeeefffffff me I wish they shake this paint-by-numbers design up, the casualization of Savage is choking the life out of encounter design and the dogpoop job design isn't enough to make it entertaining by itself.

I await the day SE just becomes unhinged and opens the boss with the 10 hit Akh Morn that combos in a Double tank Buster midway thru

[Renathras]

I haven't touched Savage yet (disorganized static noises) but I'm already groaning and whipping out the old Bingo card at the guide videos. For this fight, you'll need clock positions, partner stacks, and light parties which go East and West. Drop the waymarks 1 A 2 B 3 C 4 D in a circle. The fight opens with a raidwide, so mitigate and heal. Then there's a tankbuster which requires a tank swap.

Quick, which fight did I describe? Eeeefffffff me I wish they shake this paint-by-numbers design up, the casualization of Savage is choking the life out of encounter design and the dogpoop job design isn't enough to make it entertaining by itself.

I'm with you until the last sentence.

It's not "casualization", it's lack of immagination. They have a system they think they can use for tightly tuned fights. And they're right. Unfortunately, it's also BORING. It's like the argument that an MMO can have innovative, interesting, and highly varied class design and mechanics OR can have balance. WoW has struggled with this for nearly 20 years and not managed to solve that yet. Some "flash in the pan" MMOs seem to fix it during their very short lives, but that's because they do the FFXIV approach and simply die off and shut down before people realize it.

Has nothing to do with "casuals" or whatever scapegoat you want to throw it. It's everything to do with FFXIV's devs deciding balance >>> all. So much so, if a Job is off by 1% or so, both the community and devs tend to lose their minds...with the odd exception of a few specific Jobs (MCH, quite often, and always RDM due to how much the devs value combat Raises).

The alternative would be WoW, where there are often specs simply left out of content for entire patches or expansions. I remember back in the OG three expansions (Vanilla, BC, and Wrath) that the general refrain was "as long as one spec is raid viable for a class, it's okay", since often one or even two specs would simply not be viable for raids, but since the planer didn't have to level an alt, this was seen as acceptable, especially for Pures since they didn't have to swap role.

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EDIT:

To be clear, me personally, I prefer more diversity and distinction (my 4 Healers premise is entirely based on that), but I also understand that modern gamer communities are hyper stick-up-butt over balance and quick to kick to the curb/blacklist any perceived distinction that's too great.

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As I pointed out earlier, Coil Turn 1 took nearly 2 years after it's release before it was cleared without healers.

Now it's routine to see this happen in the highest levels of content within the same patch.

To be fair, as you and others are fond of pointing out - we gamers were, as a FFXIV community collectively, really bad/much worse back then