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  1. #1
    Player
    Eisi's Avatar
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    Feb 2021
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    Character
    Eiserne Sternschnuppe
    World
    Shiva
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    Monk Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleretic View Post
    (...)what does this do if 'an Azem from an aborted far future that isn't literally exactly us' is true that 'Azem is our many-years-before predecessor that also isn't literally exactly us' doesn't?
    Then why didn't they make Azem have their own defined gender, like Ardbert?

    Because we are supposed to identify with Azem. Because we are Azem.
    (1)

  2. #2
    Player Hurlstone's Avatar
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    Jun 2014
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    867
    Character
    Valamist Hurlstone
    World
    Phoenix
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    Red Mage Lv 90
    Hmmm... whilst I do hope the Azem aspect is still explored, I do not really want time travel to be involved. Lets leave that plot device alone for a while after Endwalker haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eisi View Post
    Because we are supposed to identify with Azem. Because we are Azem.
    I think it was done purely for the identify aspect, so they could hammer in to the player that Azem was part of our character. I really like how our Azem is made up of shards with diffrent gender and races. Makes sense with games themes and Azems title as an explorer.
    (5)

  3. #3
    Player
    Cleretic's Avatar
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    Sep 2021
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    Solution Eight (it's not as good)
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    Character
    Ein Dose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Alchemist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Eisi View Post
    Then why didn't they make Azem have their own defined gender, like Ardbert?

    Because we are supposed to identify with Azem. Because we are Azem.
    Nix your third sentence, because your second sentence is correct.

    Consider Ardbert. Even before Shadowbringers, Ardbert's design was already communicating 'this is a version of you' by way of having the same design as ARR Trailer WoL. That's a really solid, metatextual way of communicating that to us, so when they were more explicit with that in Shadowbringers, they actually didn't need to do much extra to sell that he was the direct fragment of our soul; the design nods had already gotten him there.

    Azem has to reach the same conclusion in an entirely different context; Azem doesn't appear in person, and either never has their 'this is you'-ness take center-stage or has taken so long to reach that point that at this point we still haven't gotten it. This means they instead have to sell 'this is a version of you' entirely by actions and non-physical descriptions. They manage this by having characters point out physical/aetheric similarities, describing their personality in a way that (hopefully) matches how you read the WoL themselves, and... yeah, matching the pronouns. All this evidence is considerably more subjective than the ones working in Ardbert's favor, so they all have to be as strong as possible. Because if Azem was set in stone to be male, then it's all the more possible for someone playing a female character to just go 'oh that's a new, unrelated character' and ignore all the evidence, thus misreading Azem entirely.

    Basically: Azem matches our pronouns because they need to communicate who they are as clearly as possible for the people in the cheap seats.
    (8)

  4. #4
    Player RyuDragnier's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    New Gridania
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    5,465
    Character
    Hayk Farsight
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    There are easy ways to add Azem without showing themselves, and while making them match the player. This includes having them take the form of the player because "I thought the form looked interesting, so I felt I should try it out," and having dialogue options where you choose one, but then Azem is the one saying it, a "we think alike" type deal.
    (5)

  5. #5
    Player
    Kesey's Avatar
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    Jul 2018
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    766
    Character
    Kesey Stryker
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    I'm sure when they get around to whatever Azem is supposed be doing (this was hinted in the live letter Q&A that followed Endwalker that Azem is doing something plot relevant), that we will see them choose a specific form that represents Azem or they will make Azem look like your player character (share gender and race).

    Also this latter point is already set up in the lore, as the previous Rising Event had a short story that spoke about Venat and how she chose Azem from among people who weren't from Amaurot that she discovered in her travels. Clearly implying Azem could be any race.
    (2)

  6. #6
    Player
    DPZ2's Avatar
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    Feb 2015
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    2,616
    Character
    Dal S'ta
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 97
    Quote Originally Posted by Kesey View Post
    I'm sure when they get around to whatever Azem is supposed be doing (this was hinted in the live letter Q&A that followed Endwalker that Azem is doing something plot relevant)
    Just to be clear, the answer was more along the lines of "Yes, Azem was doing something ... secret". The answer went on with something like "Imagine what your Warrior of Light would be doing, and that's probably what Azem was doing". They may never go there in-game. Link to relevant video + interpreted answer is below:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd4R5cfhLwA
    (2)

  7. #7
    Player
    Naoki34's Avatar
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    May 2016
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    Shirogane
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    1,046
    Character
    Asuka Suzuhana
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Eisi View Post
    Yo, my theory is that we will one day travel back in time as completed beings and become Azem.

    Evidence: We have the same gender as Azem unlike Ardbert neccessarily who is always male, yet still a soul fragment of Azem's.

    That means there is no reason for Azem to have our gender at all, since Ardbert would also share it if it was a requirement for shards to have the same gender as their originals.

    Maybe Azem is us from a different timeline in which the Ascians succeeded in merging all the shards, so they traveled back in time and created the timeline we are now in.
    Woaw...

    So yes, but not completely, only 2/14 of her/his soul.

    And it's still not the same person.

    It's like how a person can be different depending on their experience. But it's still not quite the same person.
    ___
    Ps: Is the reincarnation of a person the same person?

    Ps':
    And it is no longer a theory when Azem systematically has the same gender as our Avatar.

    If your character is a man, he will be referred to as He/His.

    If your character is a woman, she will be referred to as She/Her.

    That's why in the Lodestone devs' stories, you can choose her/his gender.
    (1)
    Last edited by Naoki34; 05-21-2023 at 12:32 PM.
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    August 2024
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    Still Useless... To have so many Commendations in 2024

  8. #8
    Player
    Cleretic's Avatar
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    Sep 2021
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    Solution Eight (it's not as good)
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    Ein Dose
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    Mateus
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    Alchemist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki34 View Post
    That's why in the Lodestone devs' stories, you can choose her/his gender.
    For clarification: only in certain languages. Specifically, German and French (and I can tell from your signature that you're French!). Every other language avoids gendering them, but in German and French they just couldn't construct it in a way that made sense without using some gendered pronouns.

    It's still not evidence, the OP's theory is still effectively baseless, but I do find that part neat from a linguistic perspective.
    (1)

  9. #9
    Player
    Naoki34's Avatar
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    May 2016
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    Shirogane
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    Asuka Suzuhana
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    Moogle
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    Sage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleretic View Post
    For clarification: only in certain languages. Specifically, German and French (and I can tell from your signature that you're French!). Every other language avoids gendering them, but in German and French they just couldn't construct it in a way that made sense without using some gendered pronouns.

    It's still not evidence, the OP's theory is still effectively baseless, but I do find that part neat from a linguistic perspective.
    I'm no longer up to date, I'm at 5350 and it's still useless the recommendations.

    How? You mean cultural differences related to a language and its way of speaking? Yes.
    (0)
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    August 2024
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    Still Useless... To have so many Commendations in 2024

  10. #10
    Player
    Cleretic's Avatar
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    Sep 2021
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    Solution Eight (it's not as good)
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    Ein Dose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Alchemist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki34 View Post
    I'm no longer up to date, I'm at 5350 and it's still useless the recommendations.

    How? You mean cultural differences related to a language and its way of speaking? Yes.
    Basically, yeah. It's mostly related to gendered pronouns; English was able to construct the Emet-Elidibus conversation without giving Azem a defined gender, and Japanese pronouns are so non-gendered that you actually have to go out of your way to gender someone (which famously caused problems with Nael Darnus), which would sound super weird. But German and French are such heavily gendered languages that it wasn't possible to construct the sentences about Azem without giving them a gender--so, they introduced the WoL gender switcher for those languages, but not the others. I believe Spanish and Italian would've had the same problem if there was official localization into those languages.

    This isn't the only time it's come up; the Shadowbringers all-roles quest has Cylva gender Mitron only in the French version of the scene, and the Lodestone story from Omega's point of view only genders them in (I think) German. Both times going for gendering them as female, which starts interesting conversations with both!
    (2)

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