Please finally fix Tank, DPS and Healer roles SE

[Arkdra]

And yet i still constantly run into people using single target in AOE situations, standing in mechanics, not using mitigations and role actions in the level 90 dungeons.

People do not understand the toolkits given to them, because the game makes no effort to make them useful outside of extreme and above difficulty.

If the level 90 dungeons gave you a reason to use arms length, reprisal, second wind, addle etc etc, People might actually use them on a day to day basis and become more competent in the chosen job.

This is not and never has been the case. You cannot train bad people to be good because bad people fundamentally do not care. People who are bad but that do care will eventually get out of the shitter zone but that happens through the power of googling up the balance discord. Because level 90 dungeons already give you plenty of reasons to use all of those skills! I use them all the time! Every single dungeon! But regrettably, "open spellbook and read your tooltips." is a pass/fail mechanic that 80% of every single gamer playing any video game ever can't hit.

[Renathras]

...

Where does the game teach you when to swap from single target rotation to AOE? It never does. There's something in the Hall of the Novice, but it actually teaches you the wrong thing (due to ability changes over time since it was implemented in...HW?) Indeed, there are some times to use single target rotations in AOE situations, though they are rare. Some single target abilities are DPS gains over AOE ones up to a certain number of targets (usually 4, but this can vary with some extreme cases like MCH, I believe, being one). The game also doesn't teach you much about mitigation or role actions. Or...possibly anything, it's been a while since I did the Tank Hall of the Novice.

They're useful in all sorts of content. They're not strictly necessary, but strictly speaking, they aren't necessary in Extremes or some Savages/Ultimates, either. (SOME.) Outside of a rare few cases, good Healers can keep a Tank up in Extremes who doesn't use any CDs. Again, the game doesn't teach it.

No, they wouldn't, unless they're taught to use them. All that would do is make the average DF a wipefest where people would get frustrated, drop party, and start using PF, making the DF system dead.

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Again, you have to teach people how to do things. Just slamming them into content that REQUIRES IT but never TEACHING IT is a recipe for absolute disaster. Think of how bad it is right now at its worst. That would be THE NORM.

[Rithy255]

I don't think tank self sustain needs that much of a nerf honestly, maybe I'm bias and like having sustain/utility on tanks but I like having access to skills with some healing on them, it's fun to have abilities that support team members.

The Issues I see are somewhat with Warrior, a bit with PLD too, Personally for Warrior I'd remove the AOE healing part, I'd remove regen on shake it off and rework Nascent flash to do something else, for one completely ignoring wall to wall pulls isn't really fun when playing Healer, I also don't get why Warrior is known as the "green tank" who regens allies and heals players, that would make more sense on Paladin or even Gunbreaker, but obviously Limited. I don't know Warrior feels nothing like the "beserker tank DPS with self sustain" anymore, I'd like it to become more selfish personally (obviously keep some standard utility).

With PLD, they do have noticeable strong Sustain, but mostly that comes from your magic attacks, I don't actually like that much because you can't really control that, Personally I'd remove magic attack sustain (maybe idk royal authority gives you a small amount) then either slightly buff self healing from Knight's benediction or rework clemency into a sort of MP OGCD management skill that can be used for healing allies or self. I think in general the sustain needs to be slightly reduced and put somewhere else for PLD.

I actually remember the EW Msq 81-90 dungeons being pretty hard to wall to wall on non warrior jobs, nothing mindblowing but healers needed to help, I think tanks and healer generally work best when it's where both need each other to put effort in to pull of big pulls and to mitigate/sustain/support properly

Putting more importance on Aoe/group healing in raids would also be a step in the right direction for healers to actually be more important. Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard that TOP wasn't healer intensive at all, we kinda need to reverse of that, all jobs should be pushed to the limit really.

[Sebs]

Putting more importance on Aoe/group healing in raids would also be a step in the right direction for healers to actually be more important. Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard that TOP wasn't healer intensive at all, we kinda need to reverse of that, all jobs should be pushed to the limit really.

I don't personally want all the healing to be gone but they need to HEAVILY reduce it, remove bloodwhetting, nerf nascent flash, remove equilibrium HoT, remove shake it off healings, remove 1 aurora stack, remove heart of corundum, remove holy sheltron and remove healing from divine veil.

SE went overboard with all the tank healing this expansion and that was a huge mistake, some people are really oblivious to it.

I don't personally think nascent flash needs a rework, just revert it back to the ShB version or even nerf it more than that, WAR already is the selfish tank since all it has is flash for utility (and shake but i don't consider the AOE mitigations here since all the tanks have one) meanwhile GNB has aurora and HoC, PLD has cover and internvetion, DRK has oblation and TBN, if they remove flash from WAR it really hinders its usage, because lets say you are OT player for a static and you main WAR, why would you ever bring a WAR into a raid if you're OT since you would not bring ANY utility? thats why having flash is kind of necessary, it needs to be nerfed by like 80%, but it must not be removed

TOP was actually pretty healer heavy fight, but thanks to the insane tank healing, you could clear it with 3 tanks and 5 DPS, some of the other ultimates were actually less healer intensive than TOP, so why is it that TOP is the only ultimate (as far as i know) that can be cleared with no healers? well, because tank healing and absolutely no healer based mechs, in TEA over 50% of your party will die in phase 1 because there is a debuff that needs to be esunad from 6(?) people, in DSR there was healer stacks so if there was no healers in the party it would target random people potentially killing almost everyone, in UWU you cannot get to the last phase without healer since you need the healer LB to cleanse a debuff, in TOP while it had the healer LB mech, it was WAYYYYY back in the last mech of the last phase, so you just had 3 tanks for healing and mitigation and you would get extra DPS player so you could just DPS the last phase down and even after ressing literally 7 people in the raid, you could clear it thanks to the DPS lead, TOP was just awfully designed not because there was not healing requirements, but because there was 0 mechs that required a healer.

So in short, the tanks have way too much healing and mitigations, healers lack a purpose because of this and things like forced esuna mechs are not used anymore, tank does the same things as healer but better, this games combat is a joke and 7.0 needs to fix a lot of stuff for this to make any sense

[Shurrikhan]

Again, you have to teach people how to do things. Just slamming them into content that REQUIRES IT but never TEACHING IT is a recipe for absolute disaster. Think of how bad it is right now at its worst. That would be THE NORM.

While I agree that we could use some more directly instructive tools... smaller challenges that require little modifications or understandings to get past are a normal, useful, and less obtrusive way to aid player learning.

Does this game currently have any curated sequence of learning opportunities to speak of? No. But it also doesn't have any worthwhile direct instruction, so if we're forced to be add things anyways, I'd prefer to be mindful of more natural ways of providing that support rather than defaulting entirely to direct instruction.

[ThaCa]

They should just rework the Roles into actual Roles.

DPS goes all greedy, no longer needing to rely on syncing their buffs allows for more freedom in design.

Tanks become masters of mitigation, lack of positioning and enmity management leaves left protecting their team so now most team centric mitigations are Tank responsibility, personal defensives get condensed.

Healers become supports, since healing isn't going to become more random outside of player mistakes (which usually lead to death on high end content), they will now be the main players with party and target player buffs. Heal bloat gets condensed a bit.

If Tank and Healer DPS keeps mattering, it gets more baked into the roles: Healing and Mitting builds up DPS skills, DPSing builds Heal and Mit skills on the side. Not everything is tied to this so it doesn't lock out their tools but some of it is to encourage proper playing.

[Shurrikhan]

They should just rework the Roles into actual Roles.

DPS goes all greedy, no longer needing to rely on syncing their buffs allows for more freedom in design.

Tanks... personal defensives get condensed.

Healers... they will now be the main players with party and target player buffs... Heal bloat gets condensed a bit.

All this just looks like pure reductions across the board...

Do we really need even greater simplification?

If you want as much more healing and mitigation requirements as would be the case from removing Feint, Addle, Troubadour, Shield Samba, Tactician, Waltz, Mantra, Minne, Magic Barrier, Everlasting Flame, Aquaveil, Exultation, Riddle of Earth, Shadeshift, Sacred Soil's mitigation, Kerachole's mitigation, Life Surge's healing, Nascent Flash's healing, Shake it Off's healing, Intervention's healing, Heart of Corundom's healing, etc., you could acheive all that by just... increasing the damage dealt by/in whatever attacks/content was already survivable without those tools.

And if you want healers to have more support tools... you just add them. It doesn't require removing them from the other roles.

[ThaCa]

All this just looks like pure reductions across the board...

Do we really need even greater simplification?

If you want as much more healing and mitigation requirements as would be the case from removing Feint, Addle, Troubadour, Shield Samba, Tactician, Waltz, Mantra, Minne, Magic Barrier, Everlasting Flame, Aquaveil, Exultation, Riddle of Earth, Shadeshift, Sacred Soil's mitigation, Kerachole's mitigation, Life Surge's healing, Nascent Flash's healing, Shake it Off's healing, Intervention's healing, Heart of Corundom's healing, etc., you could acheive all that by just... increasing the damage dealt by/in whatever attacks/content was already survivable without those tools.

And if you want healers to have more support tools... you just add them. It doesn't require removing them from the other roles.

Removing buttons to make room for better ones. The most bloated part of current kit gets condensed so they have actual room for redesign. All those boring af stuff can be replaced by more dps buttons and other enjoyable stuff instead of having 5 buttons that do practically the same thing but on slightly different cooldowns.

[Supersnow845]

All this just looks like pure reductions across the board...

Do we really need even greater simplification?

If you want as much more healing and mitigation requirements as would be the case from removing Feint, Addle, Troubadour, Shield Samba, Tactician, Waltz, Mantra, Minne, Magic Barrier, Everlasting Flame, Aquaveil, Exultation, Riddle of Earth, Shadeshift, Sacred Soil's mitigation, Kerachole's mitigation, Life Surge's healing, Nascent Flash's healing, Shake it Off's healing, Intervention's healing, Heart of Corundom's healing, etc., you could acheive all that by just... increasing the damage dealt by/in whatever attacks/content was already survivable without those tools.

And if you want healers to have more support tools... you just add them. It doesn't require removing them from the other roles.

Though there is a strong argument to be made that DPS and tanks have too much mitigative capability and the tanks have too much in the way of defensives (though to fair square is allergic to auto damage for some reason) and it enchroaches on the healers, think every single non healer job has at minimum a 5% mitigation (feint or addle on the wrong element), RDM MCH and PLD have 2 and DNC has a healer level AOE heal if you stack yourself and your partner

On the tank front healers now basically don’t interact with tankbusters, tanks handle the busters the same way every time (if it’s a single kitchen sink it, invuln it the second time if it happens again within a set period, if it’s a double one tank kitchen sink one invuln then do the reverse the next time the buster comes up)

I’m totally in favour of them pulling 90% of the support buttons back to healers, giving healers back their defined niche in the party that goes beyond “I press my heal after raidwide goes out” and frees up support buttons for the DPS to get more interesting buttons. And apparently the DPS like that considering you have to bono the DPS over the head in PF to ever get them to press feint or addle

[Shurrikhan]

Though there is a strong argument to be made that DPS and tanks have too much mitigative capability and the tanks have too much in the way of defensives (though to fair square is allergic to auto damage for some reason) and it enchroaches on the healers, think every single non healer job has at minimum a 5% mitigation (feint or addle on the wrong element), RDM MCH and PLD have 2 and DNC has a healer level AOE heal if you stack yourself and your partner

On the tank front healers now basically don’t interact with tankbusters, tanks handle the busters the same way every time (if it’s a single kitchen sink it, invuln it the second time if it happens again within a set period, if it’s a double one tank kitchen sink one invuln then do the reverse the next time the buster comes up)

I’m totally in favour of them pulling 90% of the support buttons back to healers, giving healers back their defined niche in the party that goes beyond “I press my heal after raidwide goes out” and frees up support buttons for the DPS to get more interesting buttons. And apparently the DPS like that considering you have to bono the DPS over the head in PF to ever get them to press feint or addle

I get that, but again: Having more on to do on Role A does not require removing tools from Role B and Role C. You can just deal with the bottleneck itself (raising the healing/mitigation required, by virtue of raising the base incoming damage).

I'm all for replacing some of this lackluster minor mitigation or raid buff BS (Feint/Addle, Magic Barrier, Battle Voice, etc.) with more interesting skills, but that doesn't require reserving a whole slew of capacity to a single Role each. It only requires that no Role's skills go to waste by too low a ceiling for the need/capacity in question (especially the Role that is most designed to deal with that need/capacity).

And while a stacked Curing Waltz is nice, it's also only barely over a single Medica's value per minute. (Remember that all Healers' heals are actually 130% of their listed potency, due to the Maim and Mend II trait, while Physical Ranged merely get 120% of their listed damage, with no benefit to healing, and all other roles get nothing. A Medica is therefore 520 cure potency in any other Role's terms, vs. Curing Waltz's maximum of 600.)