Please finally fix Tank, DPS and Healer roles SE

[fulminating]

DRK is only taken because of damage. DRK was the worst tank in SB, the worst tank in ShB, and is the worst tank in EW, period. The only saving grace for DRK is the damage, and nothing else.

Two can play at this game: WAR was the worst tank in ARR to the point it had to be remade, again was incompatible with the encounter design and had to be remade in stormblood, was the worst bar none in ShB with awkward melds that locked your gear into playing it and has received buff after buff in endwalker because they've removed everything that matters from tanks but damage.

What dark knight really needs is an unnamed streamer who's popular in the raid scene to main it and have people watch their videos that explain exactly why the change is stupid when there's dubious alterations made to it. For starters when it was deleted going into shadowbringers a widely viewed video slating that decision could have made the pr team do something.

[RyuDragnier]

Two can play at this game: WAR was the worst tank in ARR to the point it had to be remade, again was incompatible with the encounter design and had to be remade in stormblood, was the worst bar none in ShB with awkward melds that locked your gear into playing it and has received buff after buff in endwalker because they've removed everything that matters from tanks but damage.

It's actually getting attention though out of all of the tanks. PLD? They've had to beg to get things, and they rarely get them (I think this rework was the first time in years?). DRK? The unloved child, begs for things, almost never gets them, and is constantly beat into the ground. We asked for the Living Dead change since HW, and never got it until now. Every expansion DRK gets worse and worse, and I won't be surprised if somehow we're worse in 7.0.

What dark knight really needs is an unnamed streamer who's popular in the raid scene to main it and have people watch their videos that explain exactly why the change is stupid when there's dubious alterations made to it. For starters when it was deleted going into shadowbringers a widely viewed video slating that decision could have made the pr team do something.

Agreed, DRK doesn't have any popular streamers to push the devs. I don't even think the devs even play DRK tbh.

[Shurrikhan]

DRK is only taken because of damage. DRK was the worst tank in SB, the worst tank in ShB, and is the worst tank in EW, period. The only saving grace for DRK is the damage, and nothing else.

Okay, but it's still taken... more than any other Tank.

When we're in a state of the game where any other advantages a tank (or any other role) can have will be inferior to just... more damage, that's a hell of an "only saving grace".

Don't take that as a defense of DRK design, by any means, but it's very hard to call DRK "the worst tank" when it brings the most of actual value. Only GNB competes with it for position of king of the dunghill.

[Shurrikhan]

Because WAR has always been SE's "Golden Child". Whenever they want something, they get it.

I feel like this narrative can only exist at a hell of a skew. WAR has gotten the most corrections because they have also been saddled with the greatest number of DoA designs.

Have the devs regularly overcorrected in fixing those issues? Absolutely. But there have been reasons for the fixes.


A Realm Reborn

WARs: "We'd like to be more sustainable than a DPS that happens to have equal Physical Defense, if that's okay? Aside from threat, our tank stance benefits take 8 GCDs to charge up and end up still inferior to Paladin's and are reset every time we use our core tank ability... all for a bit more duration on Bloodbath and a tiny bit more health on Thrill of Battle (which comes at net cost since we have no shield and a worse Awareness and Convalescence, and lack two defensive CDs. ! Even at its best, it provides less maximum eHP and significantly less sustain than Shield Oath, for an equal damage loss. Until some 20 ilvls above our counterpart, we offer no advantage outside of AoE in T4, which very rapidly drains our TP... Heck, our 90s defensive gives roughly 4% mitigation, opposite Rampart's 20%, and in place of Hallowed Ground, we have a target-requiring knockback immunity...?"

Devs: "Oh, so you want to be Paladins? We can do that."

WARs: "No... no... just... even very rough parity? And maybe for our core features, like Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone, not to be self-sabotaging?"

Stormblood

WARs: "While we appreciate the extra space in which to bank our core skill... umm, why are we suddenly being penalized for stance-swapping, when that was core to our gameplay just last expansion? Why not just make it less egregiously costly for everyone else, too? Also, that 'cleanse' skill you guys thought would be neat... doesn't cleanse much of anything."

Devs: "Oh, okay, we now how to handle this by now." (Proceed to de-skill and homogenize.)

Or then there's just the random shit of the devs deciding they absolutely do not want tanks to have %damage based healing, but that's a separate story.

[RyuDragnier]

Okay, but it's still taken... more than any other Tank.

When we're in a state of the game where any other advantages a tank (or any other role) can have will be inferior to just... more damage, that's a hell of an "only saving grace".

Don't take that as a defense of DRK design, by any means, but it's very hard to call DRK "the worst tank" when it brings the most of actual value. Only GNB competes with it for position of king of the dunghill.

Oh I'd take GNB over DRK, its kit, while not as broken as WAR, is still miles better. Hell, I'd say if not for the sustain on PLD's spells, GNB WOULD be better than PLD.

[Renathras]

Okay, but it's still taken... more than any other Tank.

When we're in a state of the game where any other advantages a tank (or any other role) can have will be inferior to just... more damage, that's a hell of an "only saving grace".

Don't take that as a defense of DRK design, by any means, but it's very hard to call DRK "the worst tank" when it brings the most of actual value. Only GNB competes with it for position of king of the dunghill.

True, but notably...it wasn't taken to the 0 Healer TOP clear...

[ForteNightshade]

DRK is only taken because of damage. DRK was the worst tank in SB, the worst tank in ShB, and is the worst tank in EW, period. The only saving grace for DRK is the damage, and nothing else.

This is objectively false.

Dark Knight has the strongest mitigation suite among the four tanks. Two charges of Oblation, Dark Mind on a 60s cooldown and a 25% near on demand shield based off its own 100k HP are absurdly strong. In fact, it takes less damage than Warrior in fights like P7S despite Warrior's healing capabilities. You are severely underestimating how strong Dark Knight is right now. People aren't taking it only for its damage profile but due to it being, frankly, the best tank at damn near everything. It's only drawback is a complete lack of self sustain, which fine considering it's good at everything else.

And this is coming from a Warrior main who plays all four tanks.

[GaiusDrakon]

This is objectively false.

Dark Knight has the strongest mitigation suite among the four tanks. Two charges of Oblation, Dark Mind on a 60s cooldown and a 25% near on demand shield based off its own 100k HP are absurdly strong. In fact, it takes less damage than Warrior in fights like P7S despite Warrior's healing capabilities. You are severely underestimating how strong Dark Knight is right now. People aren't taking it only for its damage profile but due to it being, frankly, the best tank at damn near everything. It's only drawback is a complete lack of self sustain, which fine considering it's good at everything else.

And this is coming from a Warrior main who plays all four tanks.

The disparity between people judging job balance based on dungeons and casual content vs savage raids has never been greater

[DixieBellOCE]

snip

Its like how recently i discovered that Temperance only affects your personal healing output.
For a good 4+ years i always thought that it was just an incoming heal buff for the entire party (Granted i don't really play WHM much due to how boring it is).

The fundamentals of ABC are something learned in every MMO, and that alone, with things like sidecasting and proper OGCD management can turn even the most basic casual player into a relatively good player in a few hours of practice.
The 'Ability' and 'Weaponskill' variations are something the game needs to explain a lot better early on, basically as soon as you unlock your core kit around level 15.
The mini series Square Enix released to 'help new players' could have gone a long way if it was actually used as a tutorial on how the basic game mechanics work.

On the comments about 'The balance', There are always going to be people out there smarter and more qualified top make rotations and do all the math for gearsets/GCD speeds ect ect.
I make an effort to learn 'why', instead of just straight up copy pasting what they do, and i feel that helps a lot when theory crafting your own rotations.

I have said this before, but the game does a very poor job of preparing players for the endgame. You can get through the entirety of the story pressing one button, and that to me, is a complete waste of development time. The game should progressively get harder (not super hard, just enough to challenge the average player to get better as they progress), and by the time you hit the endgame, you will have atleast a basic concept of what is required and understanding of the toolkit available to you.

[DixieBellOCE]

This is objectively false.

Dark Knight has the strongest mitigation suite among the four tanks. Two charges of Oblation, Dark Mind on a 60s cooldown and a 25% near on demand shield based off its own 100k HP are absurdly strong. In fact, it takes less damage than Warrior in fights like P7S despite Warrior's healing capabilities. You are severely underestimating how strong Dark Knight is right now. People aren't taking it only for its damage profile but due to it being, frankly, the best tank at damn near everything. It's only drawback is a complete lack of self sustain, which fine considering it's good at everything else.

And this is coming from a Warrior main who plays all four tanks.

This.

Dark Knight currently has:
2 Oblation charges
Dark Mind
Rampart
Shadow Wall
TBN
Dark Missionary
Living/Walking Dead
Reprisal and Arms Length (YES ARMS LENGTH IS A DEFENSIVE COOLDOWN IN DUNGEONS PEOPLE! USE IT)

Compare that to Gunbreaker:
Camoflage
Heart of Corrundrum (Best mit in the game)
Nebula
Rampart
Heart of Light
Superbolide (Invuln)
Reprisal and Arms Length (YES ARMS LENGTH IS A DEFENSIVE COOLDOWN IN DUNGEONS PEOPLE! USE IT)
Aurora (heal, not a defensive)

In terms of basic utility, Dark Knight is actually insane compared to the other tanks, its only downside being that it relies on outside healing sources more than the other tanks.
Which, in the current healing meta, is not even an issue since healers barely need to heal anyway.

As it stands, DRKs damage output and mitigation kit make it the best 'high end' tank in the game, but not by a lot. Every job is viable in its own way.