Please finally fix Tank, DPS and Healer roles SE

[Atelier-Bagur]

I know, I know, there's already multiple discussions of healers being useless thanks to the recent TOP victory without em but its really an underlying problem with the core design of the holy trinity and its just going to continue getting worse unless the dev team finally addresses it.

Here are the main issues with them that I personally see.

Tanks: Too much mitigation and self-healing. Warriors being a prime example of this where even the most casual players can see how OP they are in normal content. We need their mitigation and healing skills to be nerfed so that it doesnt fully take away a healer's job.

Healers: This has been said for so many years but lack of diverse support and damage with healers not only makes the job very boring but also redundant taking into account how well tanks can do their job. Two possible solutions for this is to either embrace the damage meta and allow healers to have more damage buttons or do what I would prefer and nerf tanks so hard that they cant survive without both healers and dps so that healers have a reason to use all of their bloated healing abilities.

DPS: Only issue I see with them is the oversimplification in their job design. Of course this doesnt apply to every dps job but a common argument thrown around the community is their lack of unique playstyles and the awful 2-minute burst meta. We can still keep them simple to play but there needs to be some bit of flexibility.

I'm not a hardcore player nor do I fully understand the game's meta but if a filthy casual like me can notice and agree upon a lot of the gripes with the current combat design then it's a real problem. The whole point of the holy trinity roles in MMOs is to give each player a task they themselves can only do in group content. If another role is outperforming the task of another role then the trinity is broken.

Either have a tanks, healers and dps, or just make every class role-less and do like what variant/criterion/eureka/bozja does and allow every class able to do everything.

[R041]

Lick Yoshi's toes in the next meet. Do it or we'll lose our Roles forever.

[GaiusDrakon]

They aren't going to fix anything lmao

The copium first started with MCH, when it was one of the first DPS jobs that truly got gutted and people believed it was so that SE can build upon it.

Look where we are now:
MCH, BRD, SMN, NIN, RDM, WAR...

It's not just healers. It's not just any particular role. It's the entire game.

Yoshi P already addressed this back in ShB and said they're going to completely ignore complaints and go full steam ahead.

Just play this game for the ERP and clubs.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Just play this game for the ERP and clubs.

Lick Yoshi's toes in the next meet. Do it or we'll lose our Roles forever.

Dumb Memes aside....

Warrior Self Sustain is a Huge Issue
While it was nice for a while to not have to try TO hard to keep the Tank alive, after a while I did start to feel a little useless as a Warrior Tank can pretty much do EVERYTHING.
I think they tried to fix this, but then people complained when Warrior was no longer the Big Badass anymore...so then they went back on it.
Its an issue thats hard to fix, partially because the playerbase wont let them.

Ive said before that I think Tanks and Healers should get more responsibilities, might shake up the encounters more, and make the Trinity stand out abit more, instead of EVERYONE just being a DPS....and so that Tank Self-Sustain doesn't completely replace Healers.
Im not sure how I feel about Summoners and/or Redmage losing their REZ ability, as it is a good backup if the healer dies.....but with tanks being able to take over healing, and these 2 DPSs being able to rez....it does take away use of a Healer. Which is a Feels bad Man.

[Jojoya]

Saying "Make things better" doesn't really accomplish much.

Bring in examples from other MMOs where you feel things are working well and why you feel that. Remember that role design and encounter design go together. You can have a great role design that feels bad when encounter design doesn't take advantage of role strengths (or overemphasizes on areas where the role is weak).

Another thing that I think would help is working away from the belief that most players have that the role comp must be 2/2/4. As long as we pre-form our party, we can use what comp we want. No need for a tank swap? Have someone switch from tank to DPS or healer to fill in what's needed more. Have a superstar healer than can handle everything? Bring in an extra DPS.

I've said this before but I think it's worth repeating: SE needs to stop designing encounters around the idea that healers are fragile and a healer death is an automatic wipe. Healers are just as capable of performing their role without dying as any other role. Don't be afraid to push healers.

Healers should need to focus on healing with DPS an afterthought instead of the other way around.

Im not sure how I feel about Summoners and/or Redmage losing their REZ ability, as it is a good backup if the healer dies.....but with tanks being able to take over healing, and these 2 DPSs being able to rez....it does take away use of a Healer. Which is a Feels bad Man.

There's another healer use that seems to get ignored in encounter design.

Esuna.

Bards might have Warden's Paean but that's only good for a single party member once every 45 seconds. Tanks might be able to use their invuln to avoid a debuff that can be removed.

Right now, it feels like the only use for Esuna is when someone screws up a mechanic and you're trying to help them recover. Make use of it have a specific purpose in an encounter. I'm not trying to suggest Dispel-bot levels of use that WoW sometimes had (anyone else get stuck as the dispel-bot on Heroic Spine of Deathwing back in Cata?) but give it a specific vital use in more encounters.

[Hyperia]

If I get a warrior in roulette, I usually don’t worry about healing them and focus on other tasks. Tank self healing is absolutely broken and the only way to need a heal is to pull the whole dungeon and not use any mitigation.

[Renathras]

I know, I know, there's already multiple discussions of healers being useless thanks to the recent TOP victory without em but its really an underlying problem with the core design of the holy trinity and its just going to continue getting worse unless the dev team finally addresses it.

Hear hear.

I'd leave off that last sentence, though. Don't want to tempt the monkey's paw.

EDIT:

Warrior Self Sustain is a Huge Issue...

It's honestly not even their self-sustain (though that is kind of ridiculous), it's they can do stuff like Nascent and fully heal themselves AND A PARTY MEMBER once every 25 seconds. When did "too angry to die" become "so angry, other people are scared into being uninjured"?

RDM

RDM? RDM is at its core the same as it was at implementation. While Manifcation SEEMS less complicated now, that's only if you aren't using it right. Before now, RDM's goal was two combos in burst when they could. Now they want to try to wedge as much of a third in as they can since 50/50 instead of 80/80 means you can actually DO that three times. RDM's actually a smidge (not a lot, but a smidge) more complex than it was in ShB to fully optimize. MCH seems to be in a generally good place people are happy with (the old version was a lot of jank that even people who liked it could admit) and so is NIN.

Old SMN was definitely in need of a repair, but that one they completely reworked for...honestly no good reason since they could have just made a new Job out of the changes just as well and removed the Egis from the old one making it a straight caster of some kind like Green Mage/Mystic.

BRD is just...I don't even know what's going on with BRD. It's basically just chaos right now for no good reason.

I've said this before but I think it's worth repeating: SE needs to stop designing encounters around the idea that healers are fragile and a healer death is an automatic wipe. Healers are just as capable of performing their role without dying as any other role.

I somewhat agree with your post other than this piece. The reason is this actually IS relevant. Do a 4 man without a SMN/RDM or an 8 man without a SMN/RDM and where both Healers happen to get killed by the same mechanic. Unless you're sub 3% or so, it's a wipe (Extremes or above). 4 man dungeons it's not because Tank healing is too high, but that should be reduced (as the OP said).

Agree with Esuna though and that it'd be nice to focus on healing and DPS be an afterthought, not DPS be the main thing you focus on and work your healing plan around it. Not as sure about looking at other games as (a) not everything transfers well and (b) we can look back at ARR (WHM) or SB (SCH/AST) to see things working fine.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

It's honestly not even their self-sustain (though that is kind of ridiculous), it's they can do stuff like Nascent and fully heal themselves AND A PARTY MEMBER once every 25 seconds. When did "too angry to die" become "so angry, other people are scared into being uninjured"?

Kratos's Anger is Basically a Level 3 Healer Limit Break KEK

But yeah thats a point I forgot to specify, but it pretty much relates that Tanks (or Warrior mostly) can pretty much completely take over the Healers role.
It was kinda cute at 1st, but now it is pretty much taking away from the Role, if not completely overwriting it.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Healers should need to focus on healing with DPS an afterthought instead of the other way around.

People seem to hate this mentality, which I think also adds to the problem.
Im not a "Healers should Only Heal" kinda guy, but I believe the "Healer ROLE" should mostly focus on it....its in the name afterall.
But of course then fights need to be tooled so that the Healers responsibility matter more, so that healers...yknow, can heal.

[RyuDragnier]

Warrior Self Sustain is a Huge Issue
While it was nice for a while to not have to try TO hard to keep the Tank alive, after a while I did start to feel a little useless as a Warrior Tank can pretty much do EVERYTHING.
I think they tried to fix this, but then people complained when Warrior was no longer the Big Badass anymore...so then they went back on it.
Its an issue thats hard to fix, partially because the playerbase wont let them.

I'd say nerf it anyway. WARs are never going to have everything, and quite frankly, to hell with the fools who want it to. Drop those 400 potencies on Bloodwhetting and Nascent Flash to 300, make their heal procs be per weaponskill use and not per hit, and remove the HoT on Shake It Off. There, we've dragged WAR's healing back down to a manageable level.