What is the point of arguing whether having less grind or more grind is good design?

[Tint]

I too wish people would put more thought into how much fun content is to do and less into demanding relics to be grindier. Unfortunately we are talking about an MMO and many of its players do not actually know what they find fun so if they dont have the game to tell them what to do they are suddenly dazed and confused.

And I wish people would just leave the relic alone and do the content they think is fun for them instead.

Everyone accepts that the savage and ultimate weapons is not for them when they don't like raiding, but the grinding related weapon has to be available for everyone? Especially when it is just tomestones and no actual new content had to be developed? Just give me my "grinding old content" relic and let them develop new, fun content which you and me can enjoy on top of it.

[Zeastria]

Grinding in itself isnt fun..but:
1) It creates content - a goal to reach.
2) It can promote social interactions - force players to group up and teamwork.
3) It takes time and effort, the reward "feels" more earned..

The purpose of grinding in games
is to make content last longer.

[DixieBellOCE]

2) It can promote social interactions - force players to group up and teamwork.

And here folks, is what the average player does not want in an MMO designed to be played.. you guess it.. WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

[Vencio]

Grinding in itself isnt fun..but:
1) It creates content - a goal to reach.
2) It can promote social interactions - force players to group up and teamwork.
3) It takes time and effort, the reward "feels" more earned..

The purpose of grinding in games
is to make content last longer.

It can & can’t,

It’s difficult to measure that with “fun”,

Ideally individuals tends to rush with grind & thus would relapse all the same with “not enough content” and falll in limbo.

There’s no right & wrong,

It’s best we don’t lose sight in having fun with the game on other separate assets than just grind grind.

Grind can be fulfilling & relaxing while also dull, boring & inflict mental burnouts that would empower further game dissatisfaction.

It all depends how you look into it personally.

[UkcsAlias]

It can & can’t,

A grind is there to make progress slower, and progress is a target to aim for. Which is a way to keep you playing. If the game is fun, playing is fun. So this purely depends on the tasks themselve, if they are fun, the grind usualy also is.

But there is a point where grinds can get excessive. ARR was quite excessive on that, but makes the reward (although now glam only) worth it at that time.

It’s difficult to measure that with “fun”,

As fun is an oppinion, you cannot measure the fun value itself. But you can measure it acros people. The more people saying its fun, is a good sign, but at the same time, people saying it isnt is an equal measurement.

20% fun, and 20% hate is healthier than 50% fun and 50% hate (hate causes people to leave, so in the first case 80% is fine with it although 60% most likely are doing it more as a side task and arent forcing themselve the hard grind).

But the problem here is: people want other tasks to be given to them for the relic weapon (this is that 20% like group). While the other 20% wants this simple grind to exist. The remaining 60% still doesnt care as much, but as they arent affected anyway, they barely care, but they also wont value the effort in this for those that went this far.

This makes the 20% that find grinding fun, consider going to hating it instead. The 50% split can then turn to 30%/70% quickly. Which is very unhealthy.

Therefor, a grind must exist to some degree, as it is guaranteed to add fun, as long as you are never forced to do this content (which you arent). Heavy grinds are fine as they are there purely to cater the dedicated, which is exactly what they should do. That other group that hates the grinds in this case just needs to live with it. And they can, plenty of games already have such 'unreachable' content.

[Blossoming]

And here folks, is what the average player does not want in an MMO designed to be played.. you guess it.. WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

I’m struggling to understand why people seem to be so against content with other people in an MMO

[Tint]

I’m struggling to understand why people seem to be so against content with other people in an MMO

Because other people have expectations. And people fear they are not able to fulfill them. If you are not doing enough dps, don't pull big enough, fail too many mechanics people will get mad at you. And to avoid that rejection they don't want to play with other people in an MMO.

And it could be argued that the people who demand perfection from other players don't want to play with other people as well. People make mistakes. If they can't accept that they are better off playing with AI companions as well.

[Blossoming]

Because other people have expectations. And people fear they are not able to fulfill them. If you are not doing enough dps, don't pull big enough, fail too many mechanics people will get mad at you. And to avoid that rejection they don't want to play with other people in an MMO.

And it could be argued that the people who demand perfection from other players don't want to play with other people as well. People make mistakes. If they can't accept that they are better off playing with AI companions as well.

I’m sure it’s different for everyone but I’ve played actively since 1.0 and I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve encountered behavior like that though the RP/Mod community is where the real toxicity lies if anything. I’m sure everyone has different experiences for sure but to think group content should be avoided in an mmo because someone somewhere might say you have low dps with such strict ToS to where most people don’t even talk in pugs anymore is silly

[CelestiCer]

To me EW Manderville content should be compared to SHB Bozja, as the journey you the player go through to obtain your Relics with every side bit of content you get with it.

" SHB Bozja Relics " had everything.
Great Rewards, even furniture, Triple triad cards, Raids. A Grind with peril, difficulty that we traversed together not alone. Partyfinders to setup farming. Even full video guides. A sense of prestige and achievement having done this. With a nice good story added that I wasn't expecting to even get because my Job was so fun to play there during Shadowbringers.

Though not everyone plays one Job to only farm 1 Relic. Worse? if you want to farm them all, that becomes tedious... So Square listened, and incomes...

" EW Manderville Relics ", complete boredom.
Rewards didn't even had furniture or Triple triad cards. No raids. Grind had no peril, no difficulty to traverse together. No need to partyfinder this, no guides it's just empty. And with it being so easy, there's no prestige no achievement feel to having done this. I sense no adventure nor journey here (ironic, cause we're literally going to the moon), Jobs have been made dumber. Even the story amount is just a big comedy-skit... that coulda been a side story.

Not every Relic grind needs to be as long or hard as SHB's Bozja Relics. But EW's Relic grind? has Jobs been made more Boring, through Boring repeated content, set at Boring difficulty, makes to no surprise? for a Boring grind. This feels " Lazy " compared to SHB. It definitely does not need to be as grindy as SHB, but they coulda done way better then this in so many ways...

[Vencio]

To me EW Manderville content should be compared to SHB Bozja, as the journey you the player go through to obtain your Relics with every side bit of content you get with it.

" SHB Bozja Relics " had everything.
Great Rewards, even furniture, Triple triad cards, Raids. A Grind with peril, difficulty that we traversed together not alone. Partyfinders to setup farming. Even full video guides. A sense of prestige and achievement having done this. With a nice good story added that I wasn't expecting to even get because my Job was so fun to play there during Shadowbringers.

Though not everyone plays one Job to only farm 1 Relic. Worse? if you want to farm them all, that becomes tedious... So Square listened, and incomes...

" EW Manderville Relics ", complete boredom.
Rewards didn't even had furniture or Triple triad cards. No raids. Grind had no peril, no difficulty to traverse together. No need to partyfinder this, no guides it's just empty. And with it being so easy, there's no prestige no achievement feel to having done this. I sense no adventure nor journey here (ironic, cause we're literally going to the moon), Jobs have been made dumber. Even the story amount is just a big comedy-skit... that coulda been a side story.

Not every Relic grind needs to be as long or hard as SHB's Bozja Relics. But EW's Relic grind? has Jobs been made more Boring, through Boring repeated content, set at Boring difficulty, makes to no surprise? for a Boring grind. This feels " Lazy " compared to SHB. It definitely does not need to be as grindy as SHB, but they coulda done way better then this in so many ways...

This is the type of grind that I personally endorse & most of us can agree with (ShB Bozja’s) since it’s social, worked on over time, included scenarios, felt engaging & ultimately purposeful.

It saddens me EW wasn’t taken into this direction & can agree it is indeed far boredom & less purposeful.