Dark Knight dungeon survivability suggestion

[LiveLongGiraffe]

I'll lead by saying I'm not a DRK main, I play every job somewhat equally (ADD brain), and am decent at most (imo), not really great at any.

I enjoy tanking, so I tend to play that role most (somewhat for faster queues tbh), and while I love the job fantasy of DRK, I struggle in dungeons with it the most of all tanks, and struggle healing DRKs the most of all tanks when playing as a healer. This is almost exclusively pertaining to dungeon pulls, as I feel like DRK is on very even playing field (or even above) with the other tanks in a boss fight.

I enjoy playing PLD the most, as I am the most comfortable with its kit. But sometimes I like going ham on some DRK.... although I feel it really lags behind the other tanks in survivability, something that I somewhat felt GNB suffered from as well before Heart of Corundum. So most of the time if I feel like going with another tank than PLD, I'll go with GNB for dungeons, DRK for anything else.

What I think would fix this issue is to add a heal to either Edge of Shadow and Flood of Shadow, or to Stalwart Soul (but obvs a smaller heal in this case). Larger heals if put on the oGCD's (since they're limited to MP usage) than Stalwart Soul, I think. At least this way, DRK would have comparable survivability to GNB in dungeon pulls.

From a lore perspective (at least from what I understand of DRK in other FF's - I've only played FF4, and as the Dark Knight portion of that game was so short, I don't remember much specifics of what its abilities were like) it seems odd to me that DRK doesn't have more lifesteal in its abilities, as what I remember of the job in FF4 was "hurt myself to do more damage, and lifesteal to heal back up"... although I may have that partially (or totally) wrong lol.

Or just, take 10% of the crap they buff WAR with every other patch and give it to poor DRK. >

TL;DR : Give DRK a heal on Edge/Flood of Shadow or Stalwart Soul to give it better survivability in dungeon pulls, like the other tanks that don't get neglected by the Devs.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

It is a fact that the DRK is currently the worst tank in term of defense (Mitigation and Heal all together).

Only able to heal yourself through your 1-2-3 combo and Abyssal Drain make it hard to get some acceptable health level after you take some damage.

A problem that PLD/WAR/GNB doesn't seems to have because of the Short CD they have allowing to heal them, either through HoT, heal after attack or the 50% HP Threshold.

Like I said in an other post, I feel like TBN should get some love cause it feels completely underwhelming at this point, while being punishing for your DPS (Which make no sense at all, considering the other tank doesn't suffer from that) if you just fail to use it correctly.

I can understand that the DRK has great offensive capabilities and got an astonishing burst so it's why the defense is less high, but I can't agree with such a margin + The unjustified button bloat from lvl 82 (instead of a TBN Upgrade like all other tanks)

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

It is a fact that the DRK is currently the worst tank in term of defense (Mitigation and Heal all together).

Only able to heal yourself through your 1-2-3 combo and Abyssal Drain make it hard to get some acceptable health level after you take some damage.

A problem that PLD/WAR/GNB doesn't seems to have because of the Short CD they have allowing to heal them, either through HoT, heal after attack or the 50% HP Threshold.

Like I said in an other post, I feel like TBN should get some love cause it feels completely underwhelming at this point, while being punishing for your DPS (Which make no sense at all, considering the other tank doesn't suffer from that) if you just fail to use it correctly.

I can understand that the DRK has great offensive capabilities and got an astonishing burst so it's why the defense is less high, but I can't agree with such a margin + The unjustified button bloat from lvl 82 (instead of a TBN Upgrade like all other tanks)

I mean to be fair, Oblation while underwhelming on paper at first glance is actually a banger cooldown and I wouldnt exactly call it bloat.

But Imma be fair, a regen effect on either of these would be nice.If Oblation, then on cast, if TBN then on break (like Arcane Crest from RPR).

But otherwise DRK is well off.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

snip

One thing that bother me about Oblation versus all the lvl 82 short cd upgrade is that it takes one more button on a class which already has tonz of things to press AND it doesn't add much in term of mitigation. It just doesn't feel right at this point.

One thing in order to use Oblation, you have to press that specific button, and it's only for 10% mitigation, which is kinda weak overall for just "one button". The level 82 upgrade of other classes bring more effect than that AND doesn't add any button (15% mit + HoT for Paladin, 15% + threshold heal for GNB, 10% + 400 potency shield for WAR)

Which means that if you want to use double cooldown on a Tank buster for exemple (Assuming that all tank will use Short CD + the 20% mitigation role skill), you end up with something like this :

PLD : 15% + 15% + 20% = around 42% mitig
WAR : 10% + 10% + 20% + 400 Potency shield (around 7500) = Around 36% mitig + fixed value
GNB : 15% + 15% + 20% = around 42% mitig
DRK : 20% + something around 25.000 HP = 20% + Fixed value

As you can see, the DRK is the only tank that cannot have 3 "Mitigation" while pressing 2 button. If you want to add Oblation on top of that, you have to be extremely fast in your reaction of a Tank Buster, and if you are inside your burst window you will probably pass on it cause you won't have room for it

In an other post, we tried some math about this, and we saw that TBN was waaaaayyyyy weaker than any of the Short CD that the other tank have (Including the heal, cause that actually help you to stay alive afterward, so it count inside the survivability of a tank.). We even added 10% mitigation more to the DRK to see if we came closer somehow, and we don't. In order for the DRK to have a mitigation at least of the level of the 3 tanks with only the short CD, he has to have at least 50% Hp more or 20% mitigation, which is absurd.

I agree that the more %mitig you put, the less effective it will be cause the effect is Multiplicative and not additional. So of course, stacking layers of %mitigation doesn't help at all. While this is true, it also says that %mitigation, especially with PLD and GNB become extremely good on attack that hit hard cause you reduce the attack by almost half it's original force, and this is precisely what a DRK Can't do.

The other things that will back fire to the DRK is if he mitigate too much, the shield may not break, resulting into a DPS loss because you used your tools correctly, and that doesn't make any sense. You should be rewarded for that instead (Or at least, not punished with a dps loss). While this will mostly not happens inside Extreme content or above because of the power of those Tank buster, it may happen in more casual content like normal mode trial/raid or dungeon and thus impacting DRK for no reason.

[LiveLongGiraffe]

I don't think TBN should be changed much (although the idea of a regen on break like RPR is interesting, wouldn't hate it), it serves the purpose of completely negating a --non-DoT-- tank buster (while you laugh at the boss and attack right back) perfectly... although it is lackluster on its own when you think of the other tools the tanks got this expac, as you stated. Because of this, I think it's a better solution to focus on making AoE skills have heals, since that's the scenario where DRK falls short of the other tanks. I agree that it feeling a little less defensive and more bursty is how it should be; I also like the idea of a somewhat high-risk, high-reward tank with the capability of being either self-sufficient, or dealing crazy damage, depending on what's needed.

[Jokerz_93]

I think it’s skill issues, not a DRK issue.

Just press CDs wisely without over mit
(My general flow is: SW+OB+REP for the first pull and RMP+OB+REP for second pull and or LD. TBN when I know it will pop, Arms Length when no cd is running and DkM if there are magical dmgs. 60 secs you can use one per pull. DM same as DkM. Just not together. ).
Use Abyssal Drain wisely while your hp start to drop.
If you have a WHM wait to see if they cast Holy Spam or not. Holy stuns enemies for around 10 secs if spammed so if you use TBN/OB/SW/REP/AL during the first 10 secs of Holy spam you are kinda wasting them.
If they start using holy spam mid pull…you can drop your stance off and shirk them but only after the mobs has become immune to Stun Effect.
You are a DRK after all. (Joking obvs)

Avoid AoE.
Use your Dps rotation.
Mine is not optimised for dungeon still…

TBN + BW prepull (if WHM, skip TBN e sti cazzi del mana cap use an Edge as first button).
1/2 Aoe combo.
On the first GCD I use Delirium.
On the third I start using Quietus and Living Shadow.
Three Quietus and then 1/2 spam and Quietus to not cap gauge.
Use ogcds in between every GCD, (gap closer included) delay Abyssal drain to give you more hp and gg.

LD can be useful during the last pull before boss, so where healers have less healing ogcds. Keep in mind that after the effect expires you have no mit running over your head so it’s a good choice using LD in between so you don’t die after because you started the pull with LD, it’d be a waste.
Also use a macro with a sound to say to the healer “Ehy, I like your shoes, where did you buy them? Oh that mobs, idm I just LD this shit”.
Eyes are overrated nowadays so a macro can save you to waste an LD usage just bc healer panic and start throwing at you everything they care, even their mother.
If they keep healing you after the macro sounded, you can drop stance off and shirk them (beware always if they are a WHM).
Also keep in mind in “expert dungeons” with a mediocre party set up pull last around 50s/1 min.

Aaaand last tip I can give is git gud while enjoying the progress.
Use The Balance Discord to have a more deep insight of the job in Dungeons/raid.

Cya o/

[Oizen]

If anything is done in this area it should probably be with Abyssal drain, or something else around the lv 50-60 area.

Oblation and TBN unlock too late for it to really feel like a fix.

[RyuDragnier]

If anything is done in this area it should probably be with Abyssal drain, or something else around the lv 50-60 area.

Oblation and TBN unlock too late for it to really feel like a fix.

I really feel like Oblation could either be fused with Dark Mind, or Oblation could be gotten at 58, where DRK gets nothing. Just swap Abyssal Drain and Flood of Darkness/Shadow to fix AD, since being able to spam AD (along with a cure potency buff) would be enough to mitigate the sustain issue in dungeons. Plus that allows Flood to be upgraded into Shadowbringer, so that's one less button pressed.

[Launched]

DRK is completely fine defensively in dungeons and shouldn't require any GCD healing. It doesn't need buffed.

PLD and GNB should lose a bunch of healing, to be honest.

[Oizen]

DRK is completely fine defensively in dungeons and shouldn't require any GCD healing. It doesn't need buffed.

PLD and GNB should lose a bunch of healing, to be honest.

And not WAR?