Why is the Healer Subforum so Toxic?

[Semirhage]

Why indeed. An easily answered question! As seen in a different thread this week, questions aren't met with hostility. In fact, many of the veterans here will tell a newbie that healers *are* somewhat fun...until you get good at them, then the flaws become obvious. We even have self-professed casual healers in here, who occasionally take part in discussion, disagree, and even make suggestions of their own! Clearly it's not the friction between the casual and hardcore portions of the playerbase behind this.

No, the reason the healer subforum specifically is so toxic is because it's host to a phenomenon that neither the DPS nor the tank subforum sees, at least not with enough frequency to make note of it. The healer subforum is subject to an insistent drumbeat of the toxic casualism which is part and parcel of the Forum Sylphie.

Now, as a refresher, when I say "toxic casual", I don't mean being a casual player is toxic. Video games are approached at whatever pace the player wants and there's no wrong answer. Not finding certain types of content fun is your prerogative, as is advocating for more dev time on content you do find fun. Lacking skill is normal, doubly so if you're new. Not putting improvement on your to-do list isn't something most people here would begrudge.

The line crossed that adds toxic to the casual label is the one beyond those positions. It's not that everyone approaches the game at their own pace, it's that anyone doing it faster than me is an elitist, a tryhard, a sweaty metaslave dirty raider ruining the game by...being over there, MENACINGLY threatening us all by dint of being more skilled than me. Not that I'm simply uninterested in doing certain types of content, but that YOUR experience doing it is wrong, the skill required to do so is invalid because it's not Real Healing (tm) anyway, that the changes you think would make your experience in content I don't even do aren't suggestions a True Healer (tm) would make. Not that I'm simply uninterested in gaining skill, but (insert burst of projection that constantly dances between "lol it's just a video game bro shouldn't you be playing to relax like me" to "you're just trying to suck the HEALing out of HEALERS by minimizing your healing which makes me more of a Real Healer than you" to "well *I* am not interested in the skill ceiling. Anyway here are my opinions on how there should never ever be a skill ceiling and why the game would be ruined if anyone could be measured as being a more skilled healer than me.").

This isn't new. It's been the status quo for years. The faces have changed, the core of the arguments haven't. The attitude is always the same. Even in the modern format, where the declaration has receded from the whole healer role to just one- leave one class designed with an ankle-height skill ceiling because you're all not Real Healers anyway. Every few months someone blows into the healer subforum. Not to ask questions. Not to engage with the arguments that have been fielded, refined, addressed, or ignored on the subforums for years, oh no. Sometimes there's lip-service, I'll grant. But it always averages out to the same thing. Someone barges in, declares that um, actually healers are fun AS-IS, and you're free to disagree but it just means you're akshully a fake DPS looking for fast queues, or really a Support who needs to go play Dancer already, or *gaslight gaslight invalidate dismiss invalidate gaslight*. Despite a clear history of playing healers and metrics that show you know how to play these classes at an above-average level (and even clearly at a higher skill level than me!), allow me to cattily suggest that, um, sweaty, maybe you're not cut out for this role that is at the peak of its design now that it's explicitly made to cater to people who hate skill ceilings.

I will state outright that you're all elitists who want to gatekeep me out of content that I'm not interested in anyway, but all of your are evil mean toxic players who might interpret that as proof that I'm not skilled which Will Not Do...oh but I'm not insulting you, I'm just stating facts that you interpret as insults <3. Also I don't want to stifle discussion, but Will No One Rid Me Of This Turbulent Priest? Where are the mods deleting all of these negative threads asking for reworks? this forum is for discussing healers AS-IS, NOT for suggesting reworks. Sorry I don't make the rules and I'm not trying to stifle discussion! I'm merely fielding the idea that perhaps the rules as written state that everything you say should be deleted and muted I'm SO much more inclusive than all of you toxic elitists.

The regulars in the healer subforum have to deal with Sylphies flouncing in here, declaring that up is down. People more skilled than (me) aren't Real Healers and should Just Go Away. Threads offering "suggestions" while also spending the OP moaning about how I'm a victim and how awful everyone here is and how they'll just dismiss me outright because they're all intolerant vile people who hate me for -no reason-. Concern trolling. Declarations that everyone here is a terrible stick in the mud while patting myself on the back for how magnanimous and open to compromise I am (except skill ceilings, don't you DARE introduce them or reward them for existing. I'M the one compromising by holding my nose and graciously allowing classes I don't care about to have them!). Flouncing outside the healer subforum to bellyache and moan about how evil and toxic and irredeemable and selfish and horrible everyone here is. Confidently declaring that I never start conflict, I simply call everyone dramatic and Not Real Healers if you're not in favor of constantly spamming healing spells defined as the pinnacle of skill, but that's not *insulting*, it's just true! Constantly telling everyone their arguments are hyperbolic, then posting things like "the elitist veterans will tell you you're awful if you ever use a GCD heal", because my caricature of them is *true*, while their observations of me are *mean*.

The DPS subforum isn't toxic because they don't have a bimonthly injection of people taking over threads smugly claiming that Black Mage players are simultaneously obsessive tryhards, not Real DPSers, and that ice mages are how the game is "supposed" to work and the Fire casters should really look for a playstyle that better suits them. Oh no offense, if you suspect this position is clearly born of insecure projection you're a mean toxic elitist <3

If the healer subforum is hostile to that BS, then good on us. Nobody should have to put up with disingenuous smuggery like that and I wouldn't expect them to. I'm a cranky forum regular with a hair-trigger for Sylphie BS, and I make no bones about it. I'm also not someone who pretends that veiling one's insults in plausible deniability makes them anything other than exactly what they are. There *is* no such thing as a productive discussion with a Forum Sylphie, because they're not interested in your take on the healer role. They're prodding to quote-mine you so they can declare you're not a Real Healer and should just get out already. Oh, oh sorry. Not tell you to get out. ~Gently suggest~ passive-aggressively that maybe you'd like playing Bard better? You've been playing healers for decades with measurably more skill than I do, but you're not *actually* a Real Healer.

[Aravell]

Having been lurking around the healer subforums on and off for a long time, I've personally seen very few instances of true toxicity. I think one of the biggest reasons people say the healer forums are toxic is because they view disagreement as toxicity.

Also, side note, if someone feels "run off the forums" by someone politely disagreeing with them, then they're not looking for discussion, they're looking for an echo chamber.

[Sebazy]

I'm up for discussion all day long, it's good fun. Where I draw the line is when people build their point around completely ungrounded speculation with nothing to back it up and proceed to double down when presented with cold hard numbers to the contrary. That's been a thing on these forums pretty much since the beginning.

A big +1 on the toxic casualism thing. Honestly I don't think it's anything like as bad as it used to be back in ARR and HW though. Oh man was it rife and the healer role seemed to get it in the neck the most.

[Absurdity]

Honestly I don't think it's anything like as bad as it used to be back in ARR and HW though. Oh man was it rife and the healer role seemed to get it in the neck the most.

Which was a lot more understandable in ARR because the game was basically new and resources weren't as readily available. On top of that people went into the game with a bias they most likely acquired from previous mmos where attrition healing was the norm.

Now it takes 5 minutes of google to find everything one could ask for, guides, stat breakpoints, damage calculation formulars, etc.

[Icecylee]

Honestly I don't think it's anything like as bad as it used to be back in ARR and HW though. Oh man was it rife and the healer role seemed to get it in the neck the most.

Ah yes, the good ol days of some random tank popping in to swear about how awful every single healer is because they let them drop below 80% HP for any reason at all and they all need to focus on the cures!!!
and then you discover it's some asshole paladin trying to run stone vigil in level 30 lancer gear and not using any cooldowns.

[GrimGale]

After watching a certain chair's video It dawned on me how FFXIV provides separate combat content for different kinds of players:

Do you want to play on the more "hardcore" side? Here, you have high end content with Ultimates, Savages, Extremes.

Do you want to take it easy and go at your own pace? Here, you have non-combat stuff, housing, cosmetics, RP. Or combat stuff with Dungeons, Roulettes, Raids etc.

The game offers variety in the levels of complexity and preparation required to face its content and that is great. You know where the game doesn't offer variety and has casuals and veterans step on each other's toes?

Job design.

You will be forced to have the same kit wether you play hardcore as a healer or casual as a healer. This is the inherent problem each "side" seems to be having. That you can't touch the kits (lol) without upsetting either side, since they share the same toys.

[ty_taurus]

After watching a certain chair's video It dawned on me how FFXIV provides separate combat content for different kinds of players:

Do you want to play on the more "hardcore" side? Here, you have high end content with Ultimates, Savages, Extremes.

Do you want to take it easy and go at your own pace? Here, you have non-combat stuff, housing, cosmetics, RP. Or combat stuff with Dungeons, Roulettes, Raids etc.

The game offers variety in the levels of complexity and preparation required to face its content and that is great. You know where the game doesn't offer variety and has casuals and veterans step on each other's toes?

Job design.

You will be forced to have the same kit wether you play hardcore as a healer or casual as a healer. This is the inherent problem each "side" seems to be having. That you can't touch the kits (lol) without upsetting either side, since they share the same toys.

The thing is, though, that the relative ease of the content itself having almost no expectations of the player means even when the jobs were complex and challenging to perform optimally, it didn’t matter because the novice-to-intermediate level players were not asked to perform their chosen jobs at their apex. HW had old cleric stance, one of if not the most punishing mechanic that has ever existed on a job, and yet still novice and intermediate players had no difficulty enjoying the game and clearing fights.

There is no reason that every job can’t have a modest yet healthy amount of complexity because anyone who can’t perform it perfectly or doesn’t even care to try will still encounter virtually no difficulty experiencing every aspect of the game that they will engage with.

[BRVV]

That's why we need the healers to have ressources that can be spent on healing (+ maybe mitigation and maybe even rez) OR on dps tools. Optimize Ultimates and Savages on just using the healing, your DoT and that one dps button and make normal content have us actually be a green dps, maybe even with a rotation

[ty_taurus]

That's why we need the healers to have ressources that can be spent on healing (+ maybe mitigation and maybe even rez) OR on dps tools. Optimize Ultimates and Savages on just using the healing, your DoT and that one dps button and make normal content have us actually be a green dps, maybe even with a rotation

The problem with healing and DPS sharing resources is that the healing choice is nearly always the worse choice with how this game is balanced, even in ultimate and savage. That’s not to say it can’t be done, or that you can’t have DPS tools and healing tools that interact. If done right, it really could improve the experience for a lot of people significantly, but it’s a much harder tightrope to walk, and they seem to want to keep things as easy to balance as possible.

[GrimGale]

The problem with healing and DPS sharing resources is that the healing choice is nearly always the worse choice with how this game is balanced, even in ultimate and savage. That’s not to say it can’t be done, or that you can’t have DPS tools and healing tools that interact. If done right, it really could improve the experience for a lot of people significantly, but it’s a much harder tightrope to walk, and they seem to want to keep things as easy to balance as possible.

I'd rather have DPS tools that unlock healing as a bonus than the other way around. You have a universal tool that always has value (Damage) that grants you access to a situational tool that only has value when a player would die from the incoming damage (Healing).

Having it the other way around means the healing part will always be wasted to access the damage part (Much like Assize or Earthly Star , where you want to use them on CD irregadless of their healing potency).