Suggestion for NIN ability Huraijin

[Renathras]

My idea - remove garbage like Carve, Shadowbringer, Salted Earth etc. and add real GCDs that have some more in-depth mechanic than just building a one sided resource. I really don't think DRK should be oGCD oriented, all basic animations are very slow and it makes DRK look very goofy when he does 1/4 of animation and then it gets canceled by another.

So make DRK into an EXACT copy of WAR instead of a slightly different one? Homogenize DRK completely into being a WAR clone? One of the things about DRK right now that is unique (non-homogenized) vs the other Tanks is their oGCD focus.

It was like that in 6.0, but people hated it and wanted it separated. You can just use one if you want.

I think the argument is to just pick one of the other and dump the other one. Either have the gap closer and dump the non-gap closer, or dump the gap closer and keep the non-gap closer. If they want to keep range functionality, just make it a ranged attack. If they don't, then make it where you don't lose the stacks on taking any other actions so you can, say, Raiton, Throwing Dagger, Sukuchi, 1-2-3 combo, then Raiju. There are several ways to address this problem aside from having two buttons, one or the other of which isn't used by most players (min/maxers use Forked because it doesn't have animation lock).

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As for NIN buttons that could be combined, from easiest/least impactful to the player to most:

Armor Crush/Huraijin (as stated in the OP)
Forked/Fleeting Raiju (as stated above)
Bunshin/Bhavacakra (you always want to use Bunshin first; have Phantom overwrite Throwing Dagger while in effect, since you never want to use Throwing Dagger if you have a Phantom Kamatachi available anyway)

...for starters. You could also combine the AOE 1-2 and single target 1-2-3 into a single button (using Armor Crush/Huraijin would mean pressing it twice for the 1-2- then pressing the separate Armor Crush button for the Huton refresh).


I'm not actually proposing those changes, either, mind you, but saying they could be done without really impacting the gameplay much at all.

Problem with Carve, Shadowbringer and other damaging oGCDs, is that they're always used on CD, so I don't think there is much space for creativity.

Isn't this true of MOST dps CDs, too, though? Including most of NIN's? Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. Mug will generally be used on CD for most of the fight. Meisui will mostly be used at the same point. Trick will mostly be used at the same point. TCJ will mostly be used at the same point. etc etc. This is true of quite a few Jobs where the only time you really change it is if the boss is about to go untargetable and you have to hold burst, or in some unique cases like GNB Gnashing Fang drift or SMN Summon drift.

I think your caps lock is acting up.

Yet another attempt at an ad hominem says "Whaaaaaaaaaaat?"

I take 1-2-3 as an equivalent of basic filler auto attack. I don't mind it, and I would much rather have that than to end up like healers with 1-1-1-1-1 spam. And yes, damage is all that matters in this game, so don't act surprised when 80% of skills, do in fact, deal a different flavour of damage.

Yeah, but the point is, it very much is "more buttons not leading to more interesting/challenging gameplay" and a path to homogenization instead of away from it.

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It's an Enmity-grabbing tool; you can assign to it whatever other functionality serves to that end. If that means also causing the enemy Provoked to take greatly increased Enmity from the player who afflicted it, lasting until overridden, so be it. At least Provoke has further functions available to it than just a toggle that, at most, you wait a bit before toggling on.

Just get what you need from Provoke itself and there's no need for Shirk, Royal Guard, Defiance, Shield Oath, or Grit. The only remaining "skill-gap" thereafter of "Did my tank remember to turn on his stance before running in?" isn't worth a button.

Honestly, it would be cool if you could do Provoke/Reprisal effects through more Job specific stuff.

Shield Bash should be a big fat enmity generator, for example, instead of a button you only use for two levels until you get Low Blow and/or in PotD. And I agree that I'd rather see all the Tanks just get another charge/faster recharge on their mid teir CDs than have a separate button shared between them in Rampart. Cut all the 90 sec CDs to 45 sec and remove Rampart, simple fix there (or make it PLD exclusive once again). Reprisal isn't a bad ability, and does need to be a "doesn't do damage" thing so holding it isn't a bad move (contrast with modern use of "gap closers" as "extra burst damage" now...)

WHM could have Esuna as an upgrade of Cure 1 giving a small heal + cleanse while SCH's was based on their Faerie and AST's could be a stand alone spell, for example. Each unique ways of delivering the same effect that are class thematic instead of an additional boring Role Action button.

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But yeah, there's definitely a lot of button bloat and bland role actions in the game that could be combined with other things to make them more interesting.

[Ilyn]

NIN has always felt great with controller and I don't feel it's bloated especially if done right , even Aoe I just have to double tap L2 to switch my aoe WS's/HFM and Katon/GM using the 3 same buttons .

https://imgur.com/6CuYLDr

hell it didn't really change much since my Shb setup , in fact I use 1 less button in my ST rotation since we lost assissate

https://imgur.com/Zl06VVu



I'm glad Huraijin is nothing more then what it is and I have it tucked away in a seperate hotbar when I press R2>L2 with food, Lb, leg sweep and throwing dagger with 5 free spots to spare for things like potions or w/e

https://imgur.com/9VYjBtP

[Deo14]

So make DRK into an EXACT copy of WAR instead of a slightly different one? Homogenize DRK completely into being a WAR clone? One of the things about DRK right now that is unique (non-homogenized) vs the other Tanks is their oGCD focus.

Have you not read the part where I said to add more GCDs that have some depth (aka, some mechanic behind it, like SAM's Sen collecting). As for uniqueness - do you think being unique because you're badly designed is a good thing?

I think the argument is to just pick one of the other and dump the other one. Either have the gap closer and dump the non-gap closer, or dump the gap closer and keep the non-gap closer. If they want to keep range functionality, just make it a ranged attack. If they don't, then make it where you don't lose the stacks on taking any other actions so you can, say, Raiton, Throwing Dagger, Sukuchi, 1-2-3 combo, then Raiju. There are several ways to address this problem aside from having two buttons, one or the other of which isn't used by most players (min/maxers use Forked because it doesn't have animation lock).

Exactly, player can already pick one if they don't want to keep one extra button. This is one of the better compromises. Shurrikhan already said that you can just use plugins for that anyways, so just do that if you really think it's that important. Your solution of devs just picking one and removing other is dumb, once again, just do it yourself depending on your preferences. Don't put Forked Raiju on your keybinds if you don't want it, it's not a rocket science.

As for NIN buttons that could be combined, from easiest/least impactful to the player to most:

Armor Crush/Huraijin (as stated in the OP)
Forked/Fleeting Raiju (as stated above)
Bunshin/Bhavacakra (you always want to use Bunshin first; have Phantom overwrite Throwing Dagger while in effect, since you never want to use Throwing Dagger if you have a Phantom Kamatachi available anyway)

...for starters. You could also combine the AOE 1-2 and single target 1-2-3 into a single button (using Armor Crush/Huraijin would mean pressing it twice for the 1-2- then pressing the separate Armor Crush button for the Huton refresh).

Bunshin/Bhavacakra? How will you track CD of Bunshin? Plus there are scenarios where you could use Bhavacakra before Bunshin. Probably not optimally, but game shouldn't hold your hands and make you play optimally. And for the love of god, stop suggesting this autocombo bullshit. Just download XIVCombo and leave people who want to actually play the game alone. Just because other games which have 3x times faster and much more nuanced combat have this autocombo, doesn't mean that it's justified in FFXIV.

Healers hate the 1-1-1-1-1, and for NIN specifically, your filler would be exactly that. High octane burst, then just 1-1-1-1-1 like a trained monkey until next burst.

Isn't this true of MOST dps CDs, too, though? Including most of NIN's? Not all of them, mind you, but most of them. Mug will generally be used on CD for most of the fight. Meisui will mostly be used at the same point. Trick will mostly be used at the same point. TCJ will mostly be used at the same point. etc etc. This is true of quite a few Jobs where the only time you really change it is if the boss is about to go untargetable and you have to hold burst, or in some unique cases like GNB Gnashing Fang drift or SMN Summon drift.

This is true because of the 2 minute meta. There is not a single reason to hold your CDs when they automatically align with the buffs. This is problem with the game as a whole. Which is why I suggested for DRK to be more GCD oriented, since that would supress this kind of stuff.

Yet another attempt at an ad hominem says "Whaaaaaaaaaaat?"

Now your "A" key is stuck?

Yeah, but the point is, it very much is "more buttons not leading to more interesting/challenging gameplay" and a path to homogenization instead of away from it.

You think that consolidating everything without giving it a thought makes job more interesting? Your autocombo will certainly not make jobs more interesting or challenging either. Autocombo would be better for challenged players, but that's about it.

Shield Bash should be a big fat enmity generator

Because it's so hard to generate enmity that you need to use DPS negative GCD, which will make you drop yet another Atonement just so you align properly. /s

More shield actions would be great though, more in character than all the PLD's stab attacks.

[Deo14]

You see how reductive that is, though, right? "The decision-making would be transient, so why bother having any?"???

Apply that to anything else: "Rotations get solved for each fight anyways, so why have the ability to perform our rotations in another order?"

You are advocating for removing use of mits outside of savage/ultimates. If mits are tied to damage, you will not use mits anywhere else because it would be overkill and damage is always more important. Tied damage to mits is just as dumb as tied damage to gap closers. Those skill will lose it's original meaning, just like gap closers did. And for what? For saving single button on your hotbar? There is limit on what skills you should consolidate.

There is still a choice, you can mitigate current attack, or next attack. But in one of your idea of merging Intervene with some mitigation, there would not be this choice. You will just mitigate every raidwide (since Intervene has 2 stacks with 30s CD), assuming you wouldn't just use it for damage in a first place.

Do you want to make bland damage potency oGCDs more interesting? Put a mechanic on them, some gauge or whatever. Tying other effect on it will merely make said effect just a byproduct.

Those... aren't static positions. As long as there is mitigation you can only get the full value of from while tanking, you will eventually have to swap in, "MT" or "OT".

There is no tank swapping in normal content, which is 80% of the game. And that part of game suffers the most from the lack of depth, since you're just fighting a training dummy and you're left with doing your rotation. Playing PLD in ShB in normal content was just a 5th dps. Sure, in normal content it obviously doesn't even matter, but tell that to community which decided that PLD should be delegated to OT even in braindead normal content.

As for calculating tax for ress and similar - yeah, good luck with that. Devs aren't capable of even calculating moogle event tomes properly, last time we got 5-7 for 35 minute NieR raid but 2 or 3 for 3 minute Alexander raid. They even threw yet another towel in the ring this raid tier by making DPS checks virtually non-existant, supposedly you could clear this tier week 1 with multiple deaths and DNC forgetting to DP... I guess that's one way to make even RDM viable.

[Shurrikhan]

You are advocating for removing use of mits outside of savage/ultimates.

Not remotely. Adding miti to a greater number of abilities is not asking for the removal of mit.

Moreover, if "normal content..." is so easy as to have "no tank swapping" nor mitigation... how the heck is some attacks having mitigation... a "removal of mit"?

There is no tank swapping in normal content, which is 80% of the game.

There isn't anything required of modern normal content. That is NOT the bar to limit a game's potential to.

If anything, that's a reason simply NOT to continue slashing normal content down to pure tedium.

that PLD should be delegated to OT even in braindead normal content

Again, no one remotely optimizing anything had a static OT, because that just means wasting defensives, which would a far, far greater difference more than the self-sustain gap between PLD and other tanks. Idiocy should not be the basis for balancing.

[Deo14]

Not remotely. Adding miti to a greater number of abilities is not asking for the removal of mit.

Moreover, if "normal content..." is so easy as to have "no tank swapping" nor mitigation... how the heck is some attacks having mitigation... a "removal of mit"?

For like 5th time, whenever you put any effect on the skill that deals damage, skill will be used for the damage only. If Head Graze had 20 potency attached to it, it will be used on CD just like Empyreal Arrow or any other oGCD. What's your argument against that? That it gives you some choice while progging latest ultimate? You simply cannot put reactive effect on top skill that you want to always use on CD. It needs to be separated.

There isn't anything required of modern normal content. That is NOT the bar to limit a game's potential to.

If anything, that's a reason simply NOT to continue slashing normal content down to pure tedium.

That's entirely separate issue. Stuff like reprisal is reactive, unlike rest of the rotation, so this can liven up the bland normal content, even though the mitigation is pretty much irrelevant.

Again, no one remotely optimizing anything had a static OT, because that just means wasting defensives, which would a far, far greater difference more than the self-sustain gap between PLD and other tanks. Idiocy should not be the basis for balancing.

My entire point was that this used to happen in normal content. You know, just regular DF roulettes and stuff. Back in ShB I had people ask me wtf am I doing, MTing as PLD... in a normal raids. And yes, game shouldn't be designed around idiots, but that boat has already sailed. Now game is designed around completely braindead idiots and then top raiders which want to optimize the fun out of game. Nothing in between. They remove all the nuances and skill expression so the idiots are happy and add guaranteed crits so the parsers are happy too. That was 6.1 SAM rework in nutshell.

[Shurrikhan]

For like 5th time, whenever you put any effect on the skill that deals damage, skill will be used for the damage only. If Head Graze had 20 potency attached to it, it will be used on CD just like Empyreal Arrow or any other oGCD. What's your argument against that? That it gives you some choice while progging latest ultimate? You simply cannot put reactive effect on top skill that you want to always use on CD. It needs to be separated.

History contradicts your statement.

That literally was not true for Brutal Swing in any content with anything with stunning, Blunt Arrow in any fight with something worth silencing, Shoulder Charge in any fight with knockbacks, etc. No one routinely sacrificed greater rDPS over the fight just to use their attacks on cooldown. Attacks were used only as attacks, when there was literally no other use for them.

Not everything needs to be used on CD. The goal is the total effect that can be produced from one's toolkit, not just cast per fights.

It's only when a game is dumbed down to oblivion that optimization becomes literally only "hit it the moment you can hit it / mash da button".

If you don't like that the game is so shallowed out, then why insist on leaving encounters so featureless / any non-rDPS utility so irrelevant?

And yes, game shouldn't be designed around idiots, but that boat has already sailed.

Then what is the point of even discussing anything if (that's to be used an excuse that) nothing can be done anyways?

guaranteed crits so the parsers are happy too. That was 6.1 SAM rework in nutshell.

Guaranteed crits hurt actual parse-farmers, since they can no longer have as high of highs, making it more difficult to separate their no-life-ing from more casual but skilled players. No, guaranteed crits were for your more casual players and to increase the tightness available for DPS checks. Moreover, none of that had to do with the simplifications to the job itself: they could as easily have just made Kaiten grant the an auto-crit instead of +50% damage.

[Deo14]

That literally was not true for Brutal Swing in any content with anything with stunning, Blunt Arrow in any fight with something worth silencing, Shoulder Charge in any fight with knockbacks, etc. No one routinely sacrificed greater rDPS over the fight just to use their attacks on cooldown. Attacks were used only as attacks, when there was literally no other use for them.

Not everything needs to be used on CD. The goal is the total effect that can be produced from one's toolkit, not just cast per fights.

But there are no stuns needed, nothing to interrupt and some knockback mechanics even overrule CC resist nowadays.

Everything needs to be used on CD in current meta. Otherwise you get misaligned, and now your oGCDs are all over the place. It sure would be nice if it wasn't like that, but it is.

If you don't like that the game is so shallowed out, then why insist on leaving encounters so featureless / any non-rDPS utility so irrelevant?

But I'm not saying that utilities are irrelevant, quite the opposite. I'm saying they will become irrelevant once they're tied to yet another damage buttons. Only way to make MIT+damage button a good thing is making it deal more damage, depending on damage mitigated. Maybe make it really interesting and make skill X which deals 200 flat potency, gives 10% mit which lasts 5s, but only works on one hit. Depending on damage mitigated, deals up to extra 600 potency (numbers are just random of course). Basically a Third Eye with extra steps. This also has multiple ways to expand upon.

Then what is the point of even discussing anything if (that's to be used an excuse that) nothing can be done anyways?

Idk, I just like discussing random stuff I guess. If they didn't listen to all the Kaiten complaints, they won't listen to anything but to things they want to hear.

[Shurrikhan]

But there are no stuns needed, nothing to interrupt and some knockback mechanics even overrule CC resist nowadays.

I'm asking for mitigation, not CC; I merely pointed out a historical example that contradicts your assertion that even single-hit/TB mitigation would never be held for even a second so long as there were any offensive potency attached to it. As long as there is greater rDPS for holding it, players actually engaged with any decent degree of optimization will hold it.

Just as they used to even on purely offensive CD-attacks before we made everything align automatically.

Only way to make MIT+damage button a good thing is making it deal more damage, depending on damage mitigated.

That's far from the only way (again, you need only for situational rDPS advantages to frequently outcompete the advantage of just hitting things on CD), but I agree your general design insight here.