All the Final Fantasy references, but there's no soul

[hunkygladiator]

These references are obviously here to bait FF fans' nostalgia. And they are cool concepts that can be easily reused.

But where's the soul?

We have the Four Fiends, we went to the Moon. We have all the references to Troia, to the Lunar Whale, to Golbez.

But FF4 is a story about redemption. It's about Cecil's transformation and penance for his war crimes. And it's not just redemption for Cecil, but for Golbez and Kain too, and we see how different people approach the issue of forgiveness and redemption. And on the note of forgiveness, we see the futility of vengeance as displayed by Tellah.

Where is any of that in the story for the Four Fiends?

And what about FF8? In many ways it's about Squall slowly opening up throughout the game and "time kompression". But lol, there's barely any of that in the Eden storyline and the only theme that is at all present is on time with the Relativity casts in E12S. And I guess Eden and Gaia becoming BFFs from day one. But there's like nothing in the story that explains why she has those powers at all.

About the closest we get to the "soul" of the original game is in FF12 because of the huge amount of content dedicated to Ivalician lore in FF14. But if you paid attention to the themes of FF12, it's one of loyalty, nationalism and empire. It problematizes not just the Archadian Empire but also Bhujerba and Rabanastre, and calls into question the imagined communities that nations really are. There's none of that in the Ivalician raid of course. Bozja might have come close but it was cut short and the connections are superficial - a lot of Ivalician-style storywriting of introducing lots of political trivia to flesh out a world, but... that's about it.

Probably the only reference that is actually fleshed out is FF12's Venat, but the rationales and outcomes are so different between the two games I'm not sure if it's really even a reference in anything but name.

As for references to FF1-3, this is one area where FF14 improved upon, but that's only because FF1-3 are basically non-stories in the first place.

And there are also many more references like Neo Exdeath and Kefka with absolutely no context.

I hope in the future that when FF14 makes references to other FF's, they try to actually deliver a story that captures the spirit of the previous games.

[TaleraRistain]

Do we just want them to copypasta stories we've already experienced or show honor to them but tell a different story? I'd rather have the latter.

[hunkygladiator]

Do we just want them to copypasta stories we've already experienced or show honor to them but tell a different story? I'd rather have the latter.

What different story. You're telling me that the story of the Four Fiends has as much depth and nuance as FF4. Lmao. It's literally more filler than FF1.

[UkcsAlias]

Do we just want them to copypasta stories we've already experienced or show honor to them but tell a different story?

Its not always about copy pasting stories. Its about preserving a character in presentation. Anima, THE strongest Aeon next to sin in ffx's story (magus sisters are NOT part of that), was disgustingly placed at the end of a dungeon. Making all his strength appear as if its nothing. Its a character deserving to be a trial.

And that is an important part of fan service. As that way a character is reminded the way they remember it. Even if story wise its completely diffirent (and maybe like yojimbo anima also has a chance for a real opportunity to be a trial, but story wise it feels like they made that near impossible).

I dont care if a character gets changed, as long as the character keeps its personality and relative strength towards its original story.

The magus sisters on that were a bit more difficult as the individual fights matter (and on that, putting them in a single dungeon was on that not a realy bad choise), but again, it does not show their strength, and therefor feels like a waste.

You can make an enemy in a story a friend of you, but even then, that character needs to show its quirks of evilness it had. Even if its just in the relentless way of taking care of other enemies. Its those details that define the character. A diffirent personality means that such character could have been replaced by anything random. Its the known personality behind such character that allows further speculations etc to happen. And this is an important part of story telling, keeping the player active into thinking about all possibilities, and imagining how such character would react to it. That is an artform on its own, and EW failed a lot at this.

[AwesomeJr44]

Anima, THE strongest Aeon next to sin in ffx's story (magus sisters are NOT part of that), was disgustingly placed at the end of a dungeon.

This honestly was frustrating. At that point why even use Anima if you're just gonna make her a dungeon boss? If making Anima a trial wasn't possible with the way the story was supposed to play out, then just save Anima for when she can be a trial. The most annoying part about this isn't just that Anima wasn't implemented well, it's that there probably won't ever be a proper Anima trial now.

Do we just want them to copypasta stories we've already experienced or show honor to them but tell a different story? I'd rather have the latter.

Big same.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

This honestly was frustrating. At that point why even use Anima if you're just gonna make her a dungeon boss? If making Anima a trial wasn't possible with the way the story was supposed to play out, then just save Anima for when she can be a trial. The most annoying part about this isn't just that Anima wasn't implemented well, it's that there probably won't ever be a proper Anima trial now.

Ill Echo This, its WAY to obvious I am a FFX fan, so naturally I got ULTRA Excited at Anima...just for a Dungeon Boss.
Was expecting like a big lucrative Trial, that would have been 1000x Better then the BS we got. Not that I HATED ot...but I do HATE that they couldn't have done Anima Greater Justice by Dedicating a Trial.

Would Love to Throw YoshiP and Team the idea to make a Unique and Separate Side Quest to give us a Real, Epic, and Proper Trial for her. They could even use the Minstrels Ballad an an Excuse for it. That and maybe a Giant What-If Zodiark was at Full Power....could turn that into an Ultimate.

[TaleraRistain]

Its not always about copy pasting stories. Its about preserving a character in presentation. Anima, THE strongest Aeon next to sin in ffx's story (magus sisters are NOT part of that), was disgustingly placed at the end of a dungeon. Making all his strength appear as if its nothing. Its a character deserving to be a trial.

That raised my eyebrows as well but makes sense with the story they used the character in. I wouldn't be surprised if they were also trying to keep us on our toes a bit. And at least on a positive to it, I get that dungeon a lot, really enjoy everything about it, and I feel like I see Anima much more than I would if it was something that we had a chance to see if it only popped up in trial roulette.

[Seraphor]

That raised my eyebrows as well but makes sense with the story they used the character in. I wouldn't be surprised if they were also trying to keep us on our toes a bit. And at least on a positive to it, I get that dungeon a lot, really enjoy everything about it, and I feel like I see Anima much more than I would if it was something that we had a chance to see if it only popped up in trial roulette.

Ironically, I think what they attempted to do was use the gravitas of something as strong as Anima being 'merely a dungeon boss' (and similar for Magus Sisters) in order to sell how big the Endwalker story was getting. It was to subvert expectations. The expectation would be for Magus Sisters and Anima to be trials as the key primals of the arc, with Zodiark as the final boss, but they tried to make it bigger than those expectations.
It's like; primals used to be massive trials, but now there are bigger things than mere primals. Like "even the dungeons are bigger now!" but in reality, they're still "just dungeons."
It's a technical limitation, if they could have had 3 extra trials in this expansion, then you'd see Magus Sisters, Anima and Hermes as major trials too, with Zodiark, Hydaelyn and Endsinger as something above the order of 'trial'.

I mean, they got all of the story elements bang on for Anima. He shares the same relationship with the main antagonist, highlighting the same callous, psychopathic disregard for his parents, he's narratively an incredibly powerful primal, exerting influence over an entire nation, and beyond, and being used to power a moon-destroying weapon. The gravitas is there, they just couldn't afford a stage big enough to hold it. It's like booking Beyonce for your school dance.

[UkcsAlias]

That raised my eyebrows as well but makes sense with the story they used the character in. I wouldn't be surprised if they were also trying to keep us on our toes a bit. And at least on a positive to it, I get that dungeon a lot, really enjoy everything about it, and I feel like I see Anima much more than I would if it was something that we had a chance to see if it only popped up in trial roulette.

But thats why i mention yojimbo, as that character is shown in multiple ways: a dungeon boss, a trial, saucer event. Each having their own points in which they matter, and the event being the one where it shows a lot of its key aspects. And while a lot of players wont see the trial, yet will see the dungeon, the saucer event makes it clear why it cant be an iconic fight (plot armor prevents a life/death situation).

A trial just gives a bit more attention to a character. And unlike dungeons, trials involve more insta kills (makes the enemy appear stronger), and often wipe mechanics. For a boss ment to be strong this is demanded. And lore wise, while yojimbo has such insta kill, it makes no sense to have it used against you in the trial (except as enrage mechanic). But Yojimbo doesnt even need this because of the way he handles. But it shows that even for an enemy like this, they can find ways to reintroduce them later on.

For revival ways i see a big opportunity anyway. As his ulti looks as a transition towards the 13th, so its very likely possible his soul still remained there (as in the end, the body is always partialy there). And as it looks like something that can easily live there, it makes this a big opportunity.

But no matter what, it wont solve the part where the first fight feels like a waste. You see such strong enemy, of which the people around you were realy scared. You go in, hoping its going to be a trial of similar calibre as it has been done before, only to see it being a simple boss.

[Jeeqbit]

Regardless, they see this game as a Final Fantasy themepark. Everyone has played different Final Fantasy games and therefore everyone's definition of Final Fantasy is very different, so in order to make it familiar to everyone they bring in constant concepts and references from all of the FF games.