Samurai AoE

[Deo14]

Yes, one button that is only used on two abilities and provides no flexibility adds no depth.

Just as Celesti already pointed out (and other few hundreds people in the past year in SAM threads), they removed Kaiten and didn't alter Kenki generation. Kenki that would go to Kaiten just goes to Shinten. Instead of making sure you have 20 Kenki ready and don't overcap it, now you just need to make sure you don't overcap it. This is definition of removing depth and nuances. Combination of these small nuances create healthy and gradual skill curve.

I'm proud that you barely ever run out of Kenki for Kaiten, but keep in mind there are Ice mages, free-style SAMs, TBN-less DRKs, freecure fishers, NIN's which drifts the CDs so hard that you can hear eurobeat whenever you come close to them, and more. Simple thing like Kaiten can be difference between bad player and average casual.

Doing X before every Y isn't best design, but keep in mind that this game has 4/19 jobs which have rotation made of 1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-repeat, we have 2.5 worth of tanks split into 4 tank jobs, we have no real CC and similar effects, and few last DoTs in game are lining up to a chopping block. Ship with good job design has already sailed.

If you want similar examples:
- PLD always uses Goring blade under FoF.
- Requiescat and Faith combo is always used with FoF
- Double down, Sonic Break and Bow Shock is always used under No Mercy
- Ten Chi Jin (ability) has 3 possible combinations, yet you always use the same one

Only difference is that Kaiten was locked behind resource, while these example are locked behind CD (with DD locked behind both CD and resource), but in the end, you can fuck up all of them, which adds small, but not insignificant depth to the jobs.

But don't worry, those 3 pairs of exact same skills, which are just ST/AoE versions of themselves, are definitely good design and not a button bloat.

And most importantly, SE still didn't even respond to quite a hefty amount feedback which they specifically asked for. At this point, I would be happy if they at least said that something other than Shinten spam is coming in 7.0.

[CelestiCer]

...most importantly, SE still didn't even respond to quite a hefty amount feedback which they specifically asked for. At this point, I would be happy if they at least said that something other than Shinten spam is coming in 7.0.

Biggest Redflag for us was Patch 6.1. They asked us for Feedback, which we gave only to be completely ignored. Here "Compilation Thread against Kaiten removal" over 100+ threads / 10+ Feedback Video's and even their own Japanese Megathread lit on fire in a sea of backlash and we got complete radio silence...

Samurai Area of Effect rotation was about Darting in and out of safety aiming Tenka Goken carefully while managing Kenki with Kaiten and Kyuten to maximize the damage output. An ounce of Skill-expression, not a lot? but something.

In came the following changes...

• Hissatsu: Senei - Kenki cost reduced by half
• Hissatsu: Kaiten - removed
• Tenka Goken - Cone shape turned into Circle
• Keashi Goken - Cone shape turned into Circle

Turning our AoE rotation into effortless bland Circle spamming managing nothing... equally as thoughtless as spamming Shinten in our Single Target rotation of which no one ever brings up that Shinten spamming gives Samurai more depth then Kaiten because it's " moronic ". The " It's a button you press every-time " flawed argument? is overused and debunked, because you press every button every time and I can apply this logic to any button and suggest to remove any button at that point.

We're all for replacing x with something better... but accepting something to be taken/ removed with the empty promise of something better? proves to result into disappointment after disappointment with a lot of job changes... as they removed Kaiten? and replaced it with " Absolutely Nothing ".

[AsiTsurugi]

valid points

I appreciate people like you and Celesti still finding a way to not just call the "people" you respond to several deserved... shall we say "adjectives" with every sentence and giving proper rebuttals instead, which these "people" seem too incapable to comprehend. I blame whoever/whatever raised and educated them, assuming they had any of those.

[Ransu]

Samurai is fine.

Sure, its performance is fine. Everything else about it is not. Spamming shinten and auto crits hitting like wet noodles is not enjoyable.

[ForsakenRoe]

Once again I find myself having to ask the question: If Kaiten had to go because it added no depth, should we not also remove Bunshin from NIN? Or Gluttony from RPR? After all, there's no thought to those skills, you just make sure you have 50 gauge for them and use them on CD, right?

The reason Kaiten added depth is because without it, the only thing we spend the gauge on now is Shinten. Senei lines up with Ikishoten, you will ALWAYS have gauge for Senei because of this. So the only thing we have left to do with the gauge is press Shinten in place of Kaiten. In fact, since we generate the same amount of Kenki as Kaiten-days, we have not decreased the 'casts per minute' total at all, we've just swapped every Kaiten to another Shinten. So if we removed Gluttony from RPR, we'd just use another Blood Stalk in it's place. Nothing about the class is improved by that hypothetical change, but it removes the skill-expression of 'remember to save 50 gauge for Gluttony'. And some people might argue 'oh that doesn't count as skill because it's so autopilot to do it right' but there's plenty of people in this game who have a two button rotation (healers) and they can't even do that right.

'It's not hard to react to getting a Refulgent Arrow proc, it even lights up on your hotbars, so we should just remove Refulgent and buff Burst Shot a bit to rebalance potencies'
'It's not hard to match the Simon Says colors for DNC dances, so we should just make Tech/Standard Step into regular GCDs, it'll make them faster to execute and that means buffs will be aligned better'

DRK kinda did it right, and wrong at the same time. People complained Dark Arts was an RSI inducing 'just a modifier to next skill', just like Kaiten. So SE removed it and replaced it with all the OGCD spam we have at the 2min window now. It's STILL RSI inducing in it's own way, but the fact it's different buttons now is slightly better, apparently? Though DA was replaced by Edge, so they took 'buffs next GCD by 140p' and made it a standalone blast of damage. Which feels more responsive in one sense, but in another, there's argument to be made about the 'feel' of a skill that imbues your strikes with an effect to make them do more damage. There were other ways to solve the Dark Arts issue, and SE threw out the baby with the bathwater. And when it was SAM's turn, they threw out not just the baby and the bathwater, but the bath too. Because they removed the gameplay decisionmaking Kaiten offered (small as it was) and replaced it with nothing. If they had added a new spender with a CD (maybe a 1min CD) then it'd at least be something, a trade of sorts. Instead we got 'no we are removing this thing that some players are messing up'.

Should we also remove Higanbana because I'm really bad at managing DOTs? Should we remove Third Eye because so many people don't ever actually press it? What's the line in the sand of 'this is brainless and adds no depth to the class' that Kaiten fell on the wrong side of, that other things in the class's design don't fall foul of? Because while I'm bad at keeping Bana up, I can still see why it's an important part of the class's kit. Same as I can see how Kaiten was. I was excited to try Kaitenless SAM when it launched. I did Aldazaal my first time as SAM with Trusts. After one single boss, I was convinced: 'This design choice is absolute trash, revert immediately'.

[AmiableApkallu]

Should we also remove Higanbana because I'm really bad at managing DOTs? Should we remove Third Eye because so many people don't ever actually press it? What's the line in the sand of 'this is brainless and adds no depth to the class' that Kaiten fell on the wrong side of, that other things in the class's design don't fall foul of?

My hot take: The line in the sand is, generally speaking (I didn't play SAM when Kaiten was around): "Is this something I simply need to remember to do, or is this something where I have to make a real choice moment to moment?" Every job needs a healthy balance of both these things.

[CelestiCer]

My hot take: The line in the sand is, generally speaking (I didn't play SAM when Kaiten was around): "Is this something I simply need to remember to do, or is this something where I have to make a real choice moment to moment?" Every job needs a healthy balance of both these things.

My Lukewarm Take: Shinten / Kyuten spamming gameplay doesn't add anymore meaningful decision making or depth then " Kaiten ". The argument point of " Is this something I simply need to remember to do " is equal to " It's a button you press every time " argument phrased differently. Every button you need to remember to press is a button you press every-time, I can apply this logic to every button not just Kaiten... it's an overused debunked argument point =u=;

[Ransu]

Once again I find myself having to ask the question: If Kaiten had to go because it added no depth, should we not also remove Bunshin from NIN? Or Gluttony from RPR? After all, there's no thought to those skills, you just make sure you have 50 gauge for them and use them on CD, right?

The reason Kaiten added depth is because without it, the only thing we spend the gauge on now is Shinten. Senei lines up with Ikishoten, you will ALWAYS have gauge for Senei because of this. So the only thing we have left to do with the gauge is press Shinten in place of Kaiten. In fact, since we generate the same amount of Kenki as Kaiten-days, we have not decreased the 'casts per minute' total at all, we've just swapped every Kaiten to another Shinten. So if we removed Gluttony from RPR, we'd just use another Blood Stalk in it's place. Nothing about the class is improved by that hypothetical change, but it removes the skill-expression of 'remember to save 50 gauge for Gluttony'. And some people might argue 'oh that doesn't count as skill because it's so autopilot to do it right' but there's plenty of people in this game who have a two button rotation (healers) and they can't even do that right.

'It's not hard to react to getting a Refulgent Arrow proc, it even lights up on your hotbars, so we should just remove Refulgent and buff Burst Shot a bit to rebalance potencies'
'It's not hard to match the Simon Says colors for DNC dances, so we should just make Tech/Standard Step into regular GCDs, it'll make them faster to execute and that means buffs will be aligned better'

DRK kinda did it right, and wrong at the same time. People complained Dark Arts was an RSI inducing 'just a modifier to next skill', just like Kaiten. So SE removed it and replaced it with all the OGCD spam we have at the 2min window now. It's STILL RSI inducing in it's own way, but the fact it's different buttons now is slightly better, apparently? Though DA was replaced by Edge, so they took 'buffs next GCD by 140p' and made it a standalone blast of damage. Which feels more responsive in one sense, but in another, there's argument to be made about the 'feel' of a skill that imbues your strikes with an effect to make them do more damage. There were other ways to solve the Dark Arts issue, and SE threw out the baby with the bathwater. And when it was SAM's turn, they threw out not just the baby and the bathwater, but the bath too. Because they removed the gameplay decisionmaking Kaiten offered (small as it was) and replaced it with nothing. If they had added a new spender with a CD (maybe a 1min CD) then it'd at least be something, a trade of sorts. Instead we got 'no we are removing this thing that some players are messing up'.

Should we also remove Higanbana because I'm really bad at managing DOTs? Should we remove Third Eye because so many people don't ever actually press it? What's the line in the sand of 'this is brainless and adds no depth to the class' that Kaiten fell on the wrong side of, that other things in the class's design don't fall foul of? Because while I'm bad at keeping Bana up, I can still see why it's an important part of the class's kit. Same as I can see how Kaiten was. I was excited to try Kaitenless SAM when it launched. I did Aldazaal my first time as SAM with Trusts. After one single boss, I was convinced: 'This design choice is absolute trash, revert immediately'.

This is hands down the best reply on this subject. Well done.

[Leifei]

As a terrible casual, I don't get what was so precious about Kaiten. It was just an extra button you had to press every time you were about to use the other skill.

As a person that's mained SAM for most of its lifespan, I agree! Besides, the new skills from Endwalker, Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi: Namikiri look much cooler and add more depth to the job.

[Leifei]

Sure, its performance is fine. Everything else about it is not. Spamming shinten and auto crits hitting like wet noodles is not enjoyable.

That's subjective. I'm enjoying the job. Kaiten was just button bloat and the addition of the new techniques from lv 80-90 make up for it.