All the Final Fantasy references, but there's no soul

[TaleraRistain]

Its not always about copy pasting stories. Its about preserving a character in presentation. Anima, THE strongest Aeon next to sin in ffx's story (magus sisters are NOT part of that), was disgustingly placed at the end of a dungeon. Making all his strength appear as if its nothing. Its a character deserving to be a trial.

That raised my eyebrows as well but makes sense with the story they used the character in. I wouldn't be surprised if they were also trying to keep us on our toes a bit. And at least on a positive to it, I get that dungeon a lot, really enjoy everything about it, and I feel like I see Anima much more than I would if it was something that we had a chance to see if it only popped up in trial roulette.

[Seraphor]

We have the Four Fiends, we went to the Moon. We have all the references to Troia, to the Lunar Whale, to Golbez.

But FF4 is a story about redemption. It's about Cecil's transformation and penance for his war crimes. And it's not just redemption for Cecil, but for Golbez and Kain too, and we see how different people approach the issue of forgiveness and redemption. And on the note of forgiveness, we see the futility of vengeance as displayed by Tellah.

Where is any of that in the story for the Four Fiends?

This arc literally hasn't even finished yet. How can you tell a story about redemption without the set up providing the reason that redemption is necessary?
Admittedly a lot of the Four Fiends stuff was fairly shallow, but I'd argue the backstory we got on Rubicante showed a deeper arc for his character in 14 than his original one in 4.
We still have Golbez and Zero to go yet.

And what about FF8? In many ways it's about Squall slowly opening up throughout the game and "time kompression". But lol, there's barely any of that in the Eden storyline and the only theme that is at all present is on time with the Relativity casts in E12S. And I guess Eden and Gaia becoming BFFs from day one. But there's like nothing in the story that explains why she has those powers at all.

If you thought FF8 was all about 'time kompression', and not about remembering who you are and how your relationships with others give strength and structure to your own identity, you completely missed the mark. Gaia's memory loss reflects the GF memory loss of 8. Gaia and Ryne's relationship is almost a like-for-like with Squall and Rinoa, but exploring the potential for the R=U theory. It swaps the Squall/Rinoa archetypes, making Gaia(Squall) the potential Ascian(Ultimecia) while Ryne faces against her own Griever(Fatebreaker).
This is arguably a deeper adaptation than any of the other fanservice content in 14, instead of simply transplanting boss models and names, they went and explored the themes of the game instead. Ironically you've got this completely backwards. They included the soul of 8, but not enough surface level fanservice, and so you couldn't see it because it wasn't 'in your face' enough.

[Seraphor]

That raised my eyebrows as well but makes sense with the story they used the character in. I wouldn't be surprised if they were also trying to keep us on our toes a bit. And at least on a positive to it, I get that dungeon a lot, really enjoy everything about it, and I feel like I see Anima much more than I would if it was something that we had a chance to see if it only popped up in trial roulette.

Ironically, I think what they attempted to do was use the gravitas of something as strong as Anima being 'merely a dungeon boss' (and similar for Magus Sisters) in order to sell how big the Endwalker story was getting. It was to subvert expectations. The expectation would be for Magus Sisters and Anima to be trials as the key primals of the arc, with Zodiark as the final boss, but they tried to make it bigger than those expectations.
It's like; primals used to be massive trials, but now there are bigger things than mere primals. Like "even the dungeons are bigger now!" but in reality, they're still "just dungeons."
It's a technical limitation, if they could have had 3 extra trials in this expansion, then you'd see Magus Sisters, Anima and Hermes as major trials too, with Zodiark, Hydaelyn and Endsinger as something above the order of 'trial'.

I mean, they got all of the story elements bang on for Anima. He shares the same relationship with the main antagonist, highlighting the same callous, psychopathic disregard for his parents, he's narratively an incredibly powerful primal, exerting influence over an entire nation, and beyond, and being used to power a moon-destroying weapon. The gravitas is there, they just couldn't afford a stage big enough to hold it. It's like booking Beyonce for your school dance.

[UkcsAlias]

That raised my eyebrows as well but makes sense with the story they used the character in. I wouldn't be surprised if they were also trying to keep us on our toes a bit. And at least on a positive to it, I get that dungeon a lot, really enjoy everything about it, and I feel like I see Anima much more than I would if it was something that we had a chance to see if it only popped up in trial roulette.

But thats why i mention yojimbo, as that character is shown in multiple ways: a dungeon boss, a trial, saucer event. Each having their own points in which they matter, and the event being the one where it shows a lot of its key aspects. And while a lot of players wont see the trial, yet will see the dungeon, the saucer event makes it clear why it cant be an iconic fight (plot armor prevents a life/death situation).

A trial just gives a bit more attention to a character. And unlike dungeons, trials involve more insta kills (makes the enemy appear stronger), and often wipe mechanics. For a boss ment to be strong this is demanded. And lore wise, while yojimbo has such insta kill, it makes no sense to have it used against you in the trial (except as enrage mechanic). But Yojimbo doesnt even need this because of the way he handles. But it shows that even for an enemy like this, they can find ways to reintroduce them later on.

For revival ways i see a big opportunity anyway. As his ulti looks as a transition towards the 13th, so its very likely possible his soul still remained there (as in the end, the body is always partialy there). And as it looks like something that can easily live there, it makes this a big opportunity.

But no matter what, it wont solve the part where the first fight feels like a waste. You see such strong enemy, of which the people around you were realy scared. You go in, hoping its going to be a trial of similar calibre as it has been done before, only to see it being a simple boss.

[ZephyrMenodora]

These are supposed to be homages and to appeal to nostalgia. I love the FF4 and 6 content as a kid who grew up on those games. The point isn’t to repeat those storylines. fFXIV has its own story line that I feel exceeds any of the prior individual games.

[Boblawblah]

When I see a reference to another FF game, I assume it's just fan service and nothing more. That's a good thing. I don't want them just copy pasting plots/characters from other FF Games. At least when they do, they mostly relegate them to side content. I would have kept Golbez as an optional side quest line personally, I think the MSQ should mostly follow a unique, new story.

[Theodric]

I think the mistake many companies make with fan-service is two-fold. Firstly, not everybody is aware of the things being referenced so if there isn't much actually happening then it just amounts to 'flashy fight' and 'cool music'. Secondly, a lot of it is very surface level. The Magus Sisters and Anima were hyped up to the high heavens in marketing prior to the release of Endwalker only to end up as dungeon fights. I think in general, a lot of the fan-service in this game is very hit and miss.

With increasingly frequency, it also seems like story threads that are actually unique to FFXIV are cast aside rather abruptly and unceremoniously.

[UkcsAlias]

At least when they do, they mostly relegate them to side content.

Lets take the ff10 aeons, as they are supposed to all be iconic fighters.

Ifrit, Shiva, Bahamut: These all had iconic fights in their own events. They are surely weak for their fights these days, or savage level. But each fight is dedicated on its own to show true strength.
Ixion: Sadly a niche fight, but when when able to do it, its just as iconic as a trial.
Valefor: only seen the name as side enemy, to which i wasnt even able to realy see them overlap with ff10. But i think they chose the ff3 reference here (which is acceptable!)
Magus sisters: It was side content. Story wise they would never show up. And at least 1 aspect was clearly visible: individual fighting and group fighting. Could have been nice trial material though, but dungeon made equal sense)
Yojimbo: represented several times in several ways. has completely altered lore compared to ffx. But as all identifying aspects are there, and repeated a lot. Its well excecuted: and has his own trial!
Anima: Massive role in the story, massive build up for its fight, but a forgettable fight.

Note that anima in ffx is more represented than the other aeons in cutscenes, had a massive build up and iconic fight there. It was a major bossfight on its own even though in that fight was still actualy just a side character. This representation just demands more.
And in ffxiv, it had an even bigger build up, is at a level of similar fights (primal, which are usualy trials), is supposed to easily destroy nearly all of them... yet gets dumped in a completely forgettable fight.

That isnt fan service, its insulting. Just imagine now if golbez becomes a dungeon boss... Its not going to be satisfying. We can already predict that easily. Yet thats exactly what happened to anima. Even if anima is revived as a trial... it unlikely will feel equal to other trials. As some of the iconic moves were already used in a weak way. It would be fan service to do that though, but only as recovery. Thats how bad anima was handled. The entire lore of anima in ffxiv is meaningless because there was no trial. All its power is at an equal level to Livia sas Junius... a weak bossfight.

For fan service the worst thing to do is insulting the characters. Its the same reason why there are jokes like 'only 3 indiana jones moveies', or '6 star wars movies'. Those movies instead of fan service used the insulting method of devaluing a character

[Boblawblah]

Lets take the ff10 aeons, as they are supposed to all be iconic fighters.

Ifrit, Shiva, Bahamut: These all had iconic fights in their own events. They are surely weak for their fights these days, or savage level. But each fight is dedicated on its own to show true strength.
Ixion: Sadly a niche fight, but when when able to do it, its just as iconic as a trial.
Valefor: only seen the name as side enemy, to which i wasnt even able to realy see them overlap with ff10. But i think they chose the ff3 reference here (which is acceptable!)
Magus sisters: It was side content. Story wise they would never show up. And at least 1 aspect was clearly visible: individual fighting and group fighting. Could have been nice trial material though, but dungeon made equal sense)
Yojimbo: represented several times in several ways. has completely altered lore compared to ffx. But as all identifying aspects are there, and repeated a lot. Its well excecuted: and has his own trial!
Anima: Massive role in the story, massive build up for its fight, but a forgettable fight.

Note that anima in ffx is more represented than the other aeons in cutscenes, had a massive build up and iconic fight there. It was a major bossfight on its own even though in that fight was still actualy just a side character. This representation just demands more.
And in ffxiv, it had an even bigger build up, is at a level of similar fights (primal, which are usualy trials), is supposed to easily destroy nearly all of them... yet gets dumped in a completely forgettable fight.

That isnt fan service, its insulting. Just imagine now if golbez becomes a dungeon boss... Its not going to be satisfying. We can already predict that easily. Yet thats exactly what happened to anima. Even if anima is revived as a trial... it unlikely will feel equal to other trials. As some of the iconic moves were already used in a weak way. It would be fan service to do that though, but only as recovery. Thats how bad anima was handled. The entire lore of anima in ffxiv is meaningless because there was no trial. All its power is at an equal level to Livia sas Junius... a weak bossfight.

For fan service the worst thing to do is insulting the characters. Its the same reason why there are jokes like 'only 3 indiana jones moveies', or '6 star wars movies'. Those movies instead of fan service used the insulting method of devaluing a character

I'd be fine with golbez being a side dungeon boss, this isn't FFIV, it's FFXIV. I don't want an old villain being a main villain here. Make him a boss in a raid if you absolutely have to, but I'd keep them out of the MSQ for sure.

I will agree, Anima was awful. They might as well have not included her, but again, fanservice. People liked just seeing her.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Its not always about copy pasting stories. Its about preserving a character in presentation. Anima, THE strongest Aeon next to sin in ffx's story (magus sisters are NOT part of that), was disgustingly placed at the end of a dungeon. Making all his strength appear as if its nothing. Its a character deserving to be a trial.

And that is an important part of fan service. As that way a character is reminded the way they remember it. Even if story wise its completely diffirent (and maybe like yojimbo anima also has a chance for a real opportunity to be a trial, but story wise it feels like they made that near impossible).

I dont care if a character gets changed, as long as the character keeps its personality and relative strength towards its original story.

The magus sisters on that were a bit more difficult as the individual fights matter (and on that, putting them in a single dungeon was on that not a realy bad choise), but again, it does not show their strength, and therefor feels like a waste.

You can make an enemy in a story a friend of you, but even then, that character needs to show its quirks of evilness it had. Even if its just in the relentless way of taking care of other enemies. Its those details that define the character. A diffirent personality means that such character could have been replaced by anything random. Its the known personality behind such character that allows further speculations etc to happen. And this is an important part of story telling, keeping the player active into thinking about all possibilities, and imagining how such character would react to it. That is an artform on its own, and EW failed a lot at this.

Or it could be how in due to the high stakes of the msq at the time that something like Anima was taken to be a dungeon boss for Tower of Babel's story context. Its also one of the rare few dungeon bosses that actually has a phase in between.

Also Anima's origin in FFX was for it to be a twisted aeon based on the corpse of Seymour's mother. FFXIV used this as a parralel to how Zenos used his own father's corpse to fashion a powerful primal in leu of the aeon's origins in FFX, which I thought was clever.