Dragoon Rework

[Aco505]

I added some personal takes in blue

Lowering the cooldown of GSK could help with the drift, but it could also potentially force us into using it on hard cooldown, in order to get extra uses of it throughout an encounter instead of after the buffs are used, thus making it less intuitive than it is now. Also 28 as a number bothers my OCD so I'd stick with something like 25s, which I believe was its original cooldown in StB.

LotD actually lasts iirc 0.3s more than what it says, and then you have the extra 0.13s of drift because of the inability to queue it (and this without taking ping into account), so in order to eliminate the problem entirely, I could think of removing GSK's cooldown, but making it only usable with two eyes. However, that'd make the ability a bit hollow now since it'd only be pressed once a minute. Honestly, I'm not sure I have a definitive answer to this and I hope the devs address it the correct way and not with a workaround (if they do it at all...).


As for your suggestions on how to improve SSD and DFD, you say it yourself that it would be too punishing. You cannot tie reactive defensives to damage in this game because then you get a plethora of problems and degenerate gameplay. DRK's TBN can be skillful when used right, and extremely frustrating when it goes wrong. DRKs are penalized for trying to save teammates if the bubble ends up not breaking, which doesn't happen for any other tank defensive.

Or the case of SAM, who ideally wants to use their third eye as many times as possible, which can include getting hit by unintended stuff such as an autoattack in the pull. And this is without taking into account that not all encounters may have mechanics that consistently damage you for this purpose.

However, using some sort of resource to power up the jumps is an idea that could perhaps mix with my thought of making the 5th positional provide a nadi-like gauge. By making the proper combinations, the jumps would be then enhanced but I wonder if it wouldn't become too much of a mini game to do all that just to power an attack that happens once every 120s. I'd rather have my suggestion become more of an organic thing, as fluid as WWT is right now.

It can also be quite punishing to add more gauges, as DRG is one of the jobs that suffers the most from dying due to how long it takes to build them, but this could be avoided if this specific gauge tied to the 5th positional wasn't lost on death.


Piercing Talon cannot generate a scale directly per cast, as otherwise we'd again run into degenerate gameplay. The average potency of a DRG's GCD is 363 at level 90 without Power Surge. PT giving a scale would mean that you get 300 + 420 after every two uses of the weaponskill or 360 per GCD, thus making it quite viable to just spam it.

I can't right now think of something that would be 100% ideal, but things like making PT power up on its own the longer it's not used up to a point (similar to Harvest Moon), or powering it up by using our kit, or making it a combo with EJ a la SAM (but then you could just EJ for the buff and not because you want to EJ)... could perhaps work?

Maybe the best take would be to take inspiration from PvP. WWT is a long ranged GCD there, what if having two scales allowed PT to transform into a stronger ranged GCD? But then you'd have to weigh the consequences of potency loss as PT is a GCD and still has potency attached to it and WWT is an oGCD: 150 + 420 > 420 (if PT turned into a PvP-esque GCD WWT with the same potency).


I hope that the devs are giving as much thought to these matters and make the kit fun, interesting and as unique as possible without pruning much or anything at all, but that's probably just hopium given the circumstances.

[Petite]

As for your suggestions on how to improve SSD and DFD, you say it yourself that it would be too punishing. You cannot tie reactive defensives to damage in this game because then you get a plethora of problems and degenerate gameplay.

Piercing Talon cannot generate a scale directly per cast, as otherwise we'd again run into degenerate gameplay. The average potency of a DRG's GCD is 363 at level 90 without Power Surge. PT giving a scale would mean that you get 300 + 420 after every two uses of the weaponskill or 360 per GCD, thus making it quite viable to just spam it.

Reevaluating my previous « Blackest Night » proposition from my last post I think I worked out a much better system.

If I remember correctly, our rotation drifts forward by two GCDs every 2 minutes. That leaves me with 2 GCDs to work with. That said; what if you could power-up DfD using PT?

This change would :
• Give purpose to PT so it can be used in rotation;
• Flexibility when briefly disconnected from our target as our rotation would be undisturbed;
• By having all 3 options be of roughly equal potencies we could choose if we want to speed up our GCD rotation (no PT) keep it the same (1 PT) or delay it (2 PT) to adjust to our buffs coming back up.

Here would be the changes needed to make this system work. Keep in mind, the potencies are roughtly thought up and not mathed out. This is just to expain how the system would work.

Piercing talon :
Potency : 255 (increased from 150)
Grants a stack of Wuthering Flames.
*New animation please*

Dragonfire Dive :
Potency : 300 (unchanged)
At 1 stack of Wuthering Flames, DfD changes into Charged DfD.

Charged Dragonfire Dive (CDfD) :
Potency : 450
At 2 stacks of Wuthering Flames, changes into Supercharged DfD.
*CDfD has a new animation and new icon*


Supercharged Dragonfire Dive (SDfD):
Potency : 500
Additional effect : Grants 20 potency of fire-aspected damage to your next 5 weaponskills .
Consumes all stacks of Wuthering Flames.
*SDfD has a new animation and new icon*


I'm pretty satisfied with this proposed system. It's simple, easy, adds flexibility and a bit of decision-making.

[Shurrikhan]

...

Feels just a tiny bit gimmicky, but I like the result (able to correct/delay up to 2 GCD per 2 minutes at a cost of 5|10 potency).

The largest change here is honestly just the ppgcd increase to 250 base. DRG's appgcd when including Scale contribution is 405.

The DFD interaction merely increases Piercing Talon's ppgcd by a further 150, bringing it to 400. 10 potency to correct for 1 GCD over overclocking per minute is quite cheap and would likely make it obligatory after a point.

I feel like a way, opposite this, to rush the rotation would be a good mirror and could keep this from just becoming the new 'mostly inflexible' rotation alone?

[Petite]

Feels just a tiny bit gimmicky, but I like the result (able to correct/delay up to 2 GCD per 2 minutes at a cost of 5|10 potency).

The largest change here is honestly just the ppgcd increase to 250 base. DRG's appgcd when including Scale contribution is 405.

The DFD interaction merely increases Piercing Talon's ppgcd by a further 150, bringing it to 400. 10 potency to correct for 1 GCD over overclocking per minute is quite cheap and would likely make it obligatory after a point.

I feel like a way, opposite this, to rush the rotation would be a good mirror and could keep this from just becoming the new 'mostly inflexible' rotation alone?

In my mind, the "2x PT for a Supercharged DfD" was meant to be the optimal route, but I guess I messed up and made the potencies too low.

But are you saying you'd rather have all 3 routes (0PT, 1PT, 2PT) be equal in total potency? That could also be a better option actually. I edited my previous post to reflect that.

As you said, it would let us decide if we want to speed up or delay our GCD rotation depending on when our buffs are coming back up.

[Shurrikhan]

In my mind, the "2x PT for a Supercharged DfD" was meant to be the optimal route, but I guess I messed up and made the potencies too low.

It still likely would be, for the simple fact that you could better control what GCDs fall into your 2-minute burst window.

But are you saying you'd rather have all 3 routes (0PT, 1PT, 2PT) be equal in total potency? That could also be a better option actually.

Somewhat.

What came to mind was more of how high-SkS ARR, HW, and early (pre-Lance Mastery buff) StB DRG played (able to squeeze in an extra Full Thrust via delayed PB/HT reapplications in ARR; able to maintain CT cleave across multiple enemies while still getting in LS-Full Thrusts on CD when WT/F&C relative potency was low and LotD duration would otherwise be >21s in early StB; or by cutting out a Dragon GCD that wouldn't ultimately offer an extra Gierskogul in HW)...

...or how Shadowbringers SAM had different looping options based on GCD speed (though its BiS 'base' rotation overclocked by 3 GCDs, it could effectively pace itself for 3 GCDs' overclocking or underclocking relative to that BiS rotation) via MKSS not being used on Yukikaze, varying Higanbana between Yuki or Kasha/Gekko drops, and via Yaten-Enpi.

The latter, especially, was thereby much more able to adapt while still feeling very deliberate.

Essentially, is there perhaps anything that can be done within/despite our long combo strings that could offer the rotation a bit more nuance and ingenuity that'd also help with perfecting later burst windows' GCD alignment?

[Aco505]

our rotation drifts forward by two GCDs every 2 minutes. That leaves me with 2 GCDs to work with. That said; what if you could power-up DfD using PT?

I wouldn't call it drift per se, it's just that the GCD string takes 25s to do, and all CDs are multiples of 30, thus the burst will always start and end at different GCDs. This isn't really an issue, as the gains you obtain from always getting LC/DS up after a Disembowel (best case scenario) are not that substantial.

The potency increase to PT is probably the biggest boon, as Shurrikhan says. The problem with using PT is that it deals awful damage and causes a delay of the main combo and thus scale generation, which can lead to loss of WWT uses over the fight or drifting them out of buffs.

Another problem of adding GCDs to the rotation (or disconnecting) is that the DoT from CS will fall off several seconds before you can reapply it.

Additionally, Power Surge is usually refreshed when it has around 7s left, so extra GCDs can put us in situations where the buff falls off at a specific crucial GCD that will be followed by specific oGCDs. This could happen in P2S for example because of Kampeos Harma, even if you did two CS combos in a row.

This would be solved by adjusting the timers of the DoT and Power Surge in some way though.


I'm ambivalent about making PT part of the main rotation. I think it's better if its purpose is only to keep the GCD rolling for disconnects but fixed so that it's not that awful. On the other hand, I guess it'd be a bit flavorful since we'll be throwing our spear more?

I'd prefer it if it was our main combo doing the job of powering up stuff as it'd be more integrated and organic to the overall rotation, but perhaps that's just my personal opinion.

[Petite]

Another problem of adding GCDs to the rotation (or disconnecting) is that the DoT from CS will fall off several seconds before you can reapply it.

Additionally, Power Surge is usually refreshed when it has around 7s left, so extra GCDs can put us in situations where the buff falls off at a specific crucial GCD that will be followed by specific oGCDs.
This would be solved by adjusting the timers of the DoT and Power Surge in some way though.

Yup exactly. CS’s dot and Power Surge’s durations would need to be adjusted a bit.

I'm ambivalent about making PT part of the main rotation. I think it's better if its purpose is only to keep the GCD rolling for disconnects but fixed so that it's not that awful. On the other hand, I guess it'd be a bit flavorful since we'll be throwing our spear more?

The way I saw it after reading Shurrikhan’s suggestion, it wouldn’t be about forcing PT into the rotation like I initialy envisionned. If the « 0PT, 1PT, 2PT » routes were to be of similar potencies to one another, the whole system would be utilized as a way to give us more flexibility when disconnected from our targets as well as let us influence where, in our GCD rotation, we’d want our buffs to allign.

Example: I’m at Disembowel and my buffs are coming back up in 2 GCD, I could delay my rotation with two PTs. Using the two PTs by themselves would be a dps loss, but they would later buy-back their uses becasue DfD would have become more powerful from the two PT charges I had generated. That way, no damage loss would occur and we'll have gained a better buff starting point. The potencies would need to be adjusted carefully for that system to work as a « flexibility » option and not as the optimal route to follow.

[Shurrikhan]

Another problem of adding GCDs to the rotation (or disconnecting) is that the DoT from CS will fall off several seconds before you can reapply it.

This would be solved by adjusting the timers of the DoT and Power Surge in some way though.

Yup exactly. CS’s dot and Power Surge’s durations would need to be adjusted a bit.

I feel like CT's DoT duration should be increased (largely for cleave purposes) regardless... at least to PS's duration. Since it's being replaced early anyways, its tick potency wouldn't need to be nerfed regardless. It feels like the duration decrease is there solely to incentivize Skill Speed (in a highly awkward and situational way).

The way I saw it after reading Shurrikhan’s suggestion, it wouldn’t be about forcing PT into the rotation like I initialy envisionned. If the « 0PT, 1PT, 2PT » routes were to be of similar potencies to one another, the whole system would be utilized as a way to give us more flexibility when disconnected from our targets as well as let us influence where, in our GCD rotation, we’d want our buffs to allign.

On that note, I think you may want/need to actually increase the raw potency loss, since you'll be using PT outside of buffs, but the increased DFD damage would occur under buffs, which would already more than offset the raw potency loss.

Since the option is supposed to be situational, you'd want to tune it to fall just short of maximum raid buffs' recuperation, especially given that you'll also have the benefit of better GCD sync, too (which may itself be worth some 20-60 effective potency).

[Aco505]

I feel like CT's DoT duration should be increased (largely for cleave purposes) regardless... at least to PS's duration. Since it's being replaced early anyways, its tick potency wouldn't need to be nerfed regardless. It feels like the duration decrease is there solely to incentivize Skill Speed (in a highly awkward and situational way).

Increasing the duration of the DoT with the current design wouldn't change much, since it falls off 1 second before it has to be reapplied in normal circumstances.

Since DoTs tick every 3 seconds, making it last 27 or 30s wouldn't have any effect, not even in cleave, as you want to switch to the AoE combo the moment you have more than two targets. The only exception could be three targets that are not close and will live long enough but that's extremely niche and possibly doesn't even exist in the game.