Dragoon Rework

[Petite]

Keep spineshatter, but make it do no damage and rename it, think thunderclap from monk. Would satisfy point 4. Likewise rework elusive jump into an actual jump instead of a backflip. So you jump in the air, 'disappear' as your camera pans backwards to the destination, and jump down in the new spot.

Change nastrond to spend down the LotD gauge, make it a GCD, finish on the super jump. Make it a fun burst ability instead of a 30s paced ability. We already have fast and busy hypercharge (machinist,) and fast and slightly less busy hypercharge (enshroud.) Adding slow and less busy to DRG would be fine in my eyes and functionally is how LotD works anyways. A little bit of structure and speeding up the phase overall would just make it more interesting.

As for an eye generating ability, just straight up rip out the entire eye system. It's a hat-on-hat system that is as bolted on as literally all of Black Mage is. Just skip the middle man already and make it a proper structure. Needing to high jump into mirage dive to generate eyes only to gierskogul to launch it is just an actually bad system, period.

I'm not sure about your 3rd point, but points 1 and 2 would work well if both were implemented. Basically removing Nastrond's CD, giving you 3 charges of it would give you complete control onto how you want to spend them. And removing SS would free up two OGCD spots in our 2min burst so it wouldn't add bloat to the sequence.

Only caveat is that a damage-less spineshatter would look weird lol. That's why I'm more in favor of a front-version EJ or even 2 charges on EJ. It's such a satisfying ability to use.

[Aco505]

You speak of EJ like it’s an OGCD often used during bursts. It's not lol.

I want SSD gone because I think it feels weak, has been around since forever and occupies two OGCD slots in our 2 minute bursts. Add something new in its stead. Something more badass and which would dynamically shake up our rotation.

It doesn't matter, why do you want a forward EJ to bind when you could just give the job a non-damaging gap closer instead?

If SSD is weak, as you say, then improve it but don't remove it. Our attacks may seem "weak" because we deal 33% more damage during burst as we have two personal buffs and not one like most other jobs.

STD, for instance, deals 750.2 and 824.6 potency in odd and even bursts respectively. Could it be better due to it being a single weave? Yes, but it's no big deal and we definitely don't want it to go higher than base 800 potency as is sometimes suggested here and in the JP forums, where they often ask for it to be like 1000 potency.

Ya got me, I didn’t think about how a 5s CD on Nastrond would force people to fit all 3 within BL's 15s window. Maybe BL needs to be 20s, maybe we need to cut 1 Nastrond and adjust its potency accordingly, I don’t know.

Still, I don’t like how we’re forced to use them over the full lenght of LotD with the last Nastrond slipping out of buffs.

I can see the point of the 3rd NAS being weird since it's never in buffs, the question is... is that a problem in itself? I'd rather LotD as a whole interacted more with our other oGCDs or changed our GCDs in some way.

I am not opposed to having all NAS in buffs, but at the same time I wonder if everything has to be based on buffs and the burst. After all, we can't even have better control of WWT usage because our maximum amount of scales is 2, leaving us with only 5 GCDs of margin.

That's a bad take. And having a gutted-2m-burst for an opener isn’t ”job identity”.

If something doesn’t feel good to play, you change it for the better. After all, SE did change RDM’s Manafont from being %-based to a flat 50/50 increase to b/w mana so it could open with the party correctly.

Besides, I believe having an eye-generating ability would be a nice opportunity to shake up DRG's rotation. Maybe add 3-4 charges for eyes instead of 2? Maybe let us consume 1 eye for a damage buff? Maybe add an aoe damage effect to that ability like Horrid Roar so it's dual-purpose? Lots of ideas just brainstorming about it.

I don't agree that it's a bad take. There's other jobs in similar situations such as BRD and WHM, as well as gauge jobs like RDM, RPR or MCH that don't have all their possible resources in the opener.

I think it's good that we become a very strong job in those situations where we can start a fight with resources, such as the 2nd part of the 4th turn of each savage. When I say "it can feel bad", I'm talking about those who would like to have a proper opener.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like it too (it feels great to execute full reopeners like after the add phase of P3S or in ultimates), but if getting it means that the job stops having this unique feature, then what would be the point?

If DRG copies a system like the one used by RDM/RPR, what would be the difference then besides some flavor?

My point is: I'm skeptical. I'd rather not remove but improve what we have as I have said in other posts.

I cannot fully trust that the job will be changed for the better and fear the rework, because while some reworks may have been well-received by some, others made the job skeletal. Removal of things can easily lead to places we don't want to go (see SAM and SMN).

[Petite]

It doesn't matter, why do you want a forward EJ to bind when you could just give the job a non-damaging gap closer instead?

A forward EJ would help on Legacy camera controls. Right now, you have to wait for your character to be fully facing backwards for a split second or you risk it jumping sideways. I personally use an EJ macro like the one I use to make sure I jump towards the camera, but macros are clunky.

If SSD is weak, as you say, then improve it but don't remove it.

Yes of course that's another option. I just don't like SS and even DfD as they are now because they're such weak direct damage oGCDs. They're like filler oGCDs. It doesn't help that they lock you in place for a split second when using them which makes them feel very clunky when moving. I would at least hope they would make them more fluid (like you can sorta move as they drag you to your target) and also add some extra effects to them.

I can see the point of the 3rd NAS being weird since it's never in buffs, the question is... is that a problem in itself?

It's just that that last one feels superfluous as it doesn't interact with our buffs. It's not a true problem, but I still wish we had more control over our Nastrond use.

I am not opposed to having all NAS in buffs, but at the same time I wonder if everything has to be based on buffs and the burst.

If buff coordination keeps being such an important part of high end encounters, I do hope that our damage oGCDs would all fit inside buff windows.

But I wouldn't cry if SE were to do away with group damage buffs. 1-2 window party buffs are the main reason why people complain about job designs feeling homogenous. It's too constraining design-wise for uniqueness to flourish.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like it too (it feels great to execute full reopeners like after the add phase of P3S or in ultimates), but if getting it means that the job stops having this unique feature, then what would be the point? If DRG copies a system like the one used by RDM/RPR, what would be the difference then besides some flavor?

Well you admit you'd enjoy having a good opener. And I'm not saying that as a "gotcha". Weighing fun against flavor, I'm pretty sure anyone would pick fun first.

On another note, I don't agree that having a weak opener has anything to do with job flavor.

My point is: I'm skeptical. I'd rather not remove but improve what we have as I have said in other posts. [...] Removal of things can easily lead to places we don't want to go (see SAM and SMN).

I'm in the same boat. As a former SMN player in SB and ShB, its rework shocked me and I dread they do the same to DRG as it is pretty straightforward already. Its only real issues to me are that their 2 minute burst is bloated and it suffers from jump/ss/dfd/sd lock-you-in-place clunkiness.

But that doesn't stop me from wishing they innovate on it instead of playing it safe out of fear they lobotomize it the SMN way.

[Shurrikhan]

A forward EJ would help on Legacy camera controls. Right now, you have to wait for your character to be fully facing backwards for a split second or you risk it jumping sideways. I personally use an EJ macro like the one I use to make sure I jump towards the camera, but macros are clunky.

Then shouldn't we be pushing for that more universal solution that would help everyone (allowing at least the first actionable step of macros to be properly queued), instead of removing an iconic (if increasingly lackluster) skill just to make room for a duplicating of another we already have but now with /turn camera built into it?

I just don't like SS and even DfD as they are now because they're such weak direct damage oGCDs. They're like filler oGCDs. It doesn't help that they lock you in place for a split second when using them which makes them feel very clunky when moving.

Fair, but isn't that essentially because the damage value that would have gone into those skills themselves was siphoned instead into Mirage Dive? The latter makes the DRG iconicly heavy in how much it can bank, sure, but since 200 potency of each Jump (and formerly SSD) now comes in the form of Mirage Dive instead, it's little surprise that they'd feel weak in their own direct damage without their, in turn, siphoning potency from another part of the kit.

On which note, I'd be happy to have slightly less potency each on Raiden/True, Disembowel, Vorpal, WT, and F&C and move that potency instead to SSD/Jump and, especially, DFD.



Or, heck, consolidate Jump and SSD, but into a skill that just yeets the DRG up and out of the arena, avoiding most non-targeted, non-raid-wide damage, for survival befitting a job classed just under a tank for its eHP. Once up in the air, your next GCD skill is augmented, dealing additional damage and/or effect (Heavens' Thrust --> Heavensfall for a true nuke; Chaotic Spring --> Chaotic Fount, for an AoE DoT; etc.). Unique, high in utility, smooth to execute upon, and highly interactive.

[Aco505]

A forward EJ would help on Legacy camera controls. Right now, you have to wait for your character to be fully facing backwards for a split second or you risk it jumping sideways. I personally use an EJ macro like the one I use to make sure I jump towards the camera, but macros are clunky.

I play on legacy too and this is not really an issue unless you need to time extremely tight EJs to keep uptime, which hasn't been a thing even on P4-2S when you could use it before the animation lock reduction to keep full uptime in Act 3.

Yes of course that's another option. I just don't like SS and even DfD as they are now because they're such weak direct damage oGCDs. They're like filler oGCDs.

Which is why they need a better purpose, especially DFD. Also animation locks are part of DRG, it's normal that it requires more effort for us to move during bursts.

Well you admit you'd enjoy having a good opener. And I'm not saying that as a "gotcha". Weighing fun against flavor, I'm pretty sure anyone would pick fun first.

On another note, I don't agree that having a weak opener has anything to do with job flavor.

The point is that if we had a normal opener, we wouldn't be as strong as we can be with full resources and our new opener wouldn't be like the reopeners you get in fights like P3S or ultimate phases after downtime because in these we have to press more oGCDs than a normal even-minute window and SE doesn't want that. We'd have one more LotD but oGCDs would be cut somewhere else.

There's also nothing wrong with having a job (or jobs) in the game that ramp up slowly. MNK is similar: they don't have their strongest hit in their opener or any even-minute window unless they manipulate their blitzes if the encounter allows it.

Its only real issues to me are that their 2 minute burst is bloated and it suffers from jump/ss/dfd/sd lock-you-in-place clunkiness.

What you call bloated (number of oGCDs used) and clunkiness is what many veteran DRG mains love. EW DRG is the best it's ever been precisely because of the way you can machine-gun all your oGCDs in burst in a similar way to DRK and GNB and I hope it stays that way.

[Petite]

Then shouldn't we be pushing for that more universal solution that would help everyone (allowing at least the first actionable step of macros to be properly queued), instead of removing an iconic (if increasingly lackluster) skill just to make room for a duplicating of another we already have but now with /turn camera built into it?

Hmm, I wouldn’t say SSD is iconic at all. Jump definitely is though.

I’m not in favor of macros being smoother to use. And I don’t think it’s a tall ask to have a forward version. RPR has both after all.

I play on legacy too and this is not really an issue unless you need to time extremely tight EJs to keep uptime.

But the point still stands that it wouldn’t hurt/disrupt anybody/anything to have that option available don’t you agree? It's just QoL.

Also animation locks are part of DRG, it's normal that it requires more effort for us to move during bursts.

It’s not that it requires more effort, (it doesn’t really, just slight planning in rare instances). It’s that, to me, using them in succession -5 during our 2 min burst- feels like I'm micro-stuttering. I give a pass to Star Diver because that’s what an « ultimate » ability should feel like. I just wish we could move our characters during the animation as soon as we arrive in melee range to our targets, with one exception being Star Diver as I said previously.

.

I like current DRG, but I seem to be the only one hoping for DRG to evolve even further. Most want it to remain the same, which I understand, but I didn’t expect to also see resistance to even QoL suggestions (mine being smoother jumps and a forward version of EJ).

Feel free to disagree, I honestly don’t mind and actually like the interaction, but I wish more people would want to see new, flashy, and engaging stuff. It's like we're all too paralyzed to move forward because of the thought of SE giving DRG the SMN treatment.

[Aco505]

I wouldn't say I'm paralyzed or anything. It's more that if something has to be improved, then it should be changed but not removed.

In the first page of this thread you can see some of the ideas I have. Almost none of them require removal of things. And I'm sure there's more like those.

My main issue is that if something is removed, there is a good chance we won't be given something else in return.

I personally like being able to jump several times in a row during burst. It's something only DRG can do, so I wouldn't remove any jump and instead would even want more.

[Petite]

I really like most of your suggestions. I added some personal takes in blue:

- Allow the 4th and 5th positional to be used in any order.
As long as both are executed to generate your next Raiden Thrust, I really like this one.


- Return the blue Blood of the Dragon aura when we have one or more dragon eyes.
Totally. I don’t know why they got rid of it. Give it back some of its flair: Faded blue for one eye, deep blue for 2 eyes before entering Life.


- Tune GSK in some way [B]so that it doesn't drift.
Maybe lowering its CD to 28s?


- The ability to have a maximum of 3 scales while keeping the Wyrmwind Thrust cost at 2 for more flexibility.

- A defensive of some kind

- Actual interaction for Spineshatter Dive and Dragonfire Dive
Please entertain this idea of mine:

Increase the number of scales we can hold at once to 3 or 4 and give DRG a « Blackest Night » type ability that grants a 20% HP damage barrier lasting 5s at the cost of 1 scale.
• If the barrier breaks once, DfD changes to a new weaponskill named Charged DfD, dealing 510 potency. Same animation, but the flames are now red and blue.
• If the barrier breaks a second time, Charge DfD changes to yet another new weaponskill called Supercharged DfD, dealing 780 potency. Same animation, but the flames are now red and purple

The gist is that you spend scales (worth 210 potency each) to charge up DfD. Risk+Reward type of deal :

• 0 breaks = 300 (DfD) + 420 = 720 total potency
• 1 break = 570 (Charged DfD) + 210 (1 scale spent) = 780 total potency
• 2 breaks = 850 (Supercharged DfD) + 0 (2 scales spent) = 850 total potency

With this, DRG would get acquire a new objective, which would be to break the barrier twice between every 2 minute burst. It would also add more planning on when you want to spend those scales.

Edit: I realize it would be too punishing if you miss the barrier break or need to use it even after two breaks. Needs more tweaking, but you get the gist.


- Make Piercing Talon not useless.
Maybe have it generate a scale? With the increased scale cap you suggested, I figure it would be a welcomed modification.


- Upgrade Vorpal Thrust's animation.
- Make the positional in the 5th GCD to have a new animation
Although this is a pipe dream, I would love for SE to revamp DRG’s animations and give them a more visceral feel, or at least change weaponskill animations while under LotD for added flair.
I play PGR on the side and I have to say most of DRG’s anims look dated when they're compared.

Here’s for reference :
https://youtu.be/dI4pcEg9ACI?t=75
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npxcN_loPbg

[Cabalabob]

I imagine the rework will follow suit with the DRK/WAR/PLD/SMN reworks of just simplifying and tightening up the rotation so it cycles better with the 2 min meta with a strong burst window. Likely changing things to start looking like the final rotation earlier in the jobs life.

I can see some action trimming for starters. Disembowel and vorpal thrust combined into one action, dragon sight removed or combined with lance charge/litany, mirage dive baked into high jump, dragonfire dive removed/combined with stardiver, life surge reworked into a purely defensive tool, fang and claw/wheeling thrust combined into one action that changes based on which proc you have, probably some change so that high jump activates “geriskogul ready” (removing the CD from geriskogul) so you can’t misalign your life of the dragon by using it before jump and maybe some random changes like making elusive jump buff your next piercing talon.

For the rotation I’m basically expecting them to add a lower level action in the 50 era that will become geriskogul at 60 and nastrond as usual. Which is why I believe dragonfire dive would likely be combined with stardiver to be kind of a lower level version that upgrades when geriskogul becomes nastrond. The geriskogul action being triggered by using jump which upgrades to high jump… You see where I’m going with this.

[Aco505]

I added some personal takes in blue

Lowering the cooldown of GSK could help with the drift, but it could also potentially force us into using it on hard cooldown, in order to get extra uses of it throughout an encounter instead of after the buffs are used, thus making it less intuitive than it is now. Also 28 as a number bothers my OCD so I'd stick with something like 25s, which I believe was its original cooldown in StB.

LotD actually lasts iirc 0.3s more than what it says, and then you have the extra 0.13s of drift because of the inability to queue it (and this without taking ping into account), so in order to eliminate the problem entirely, I could think of removing GSK's cooldown, but making it only usable with two eyes. However, that'd make the ability a bit hollow now since it'd only be pressed once a minute. Honestly, I'm not sure I have a definitive answer to this and I hope the devs address it the correct way and not with a workaround (if they do it at all...).


As for your suggestions on how to improve SSD and DFD, you say it yourself that it would be too punishing. You cannot tie reactive defensives to damage in this game because then you get a plethora of problems and degenerate gameplay. DRK's TBN can be skillful when used right, and extremely frustrating when it goes wrong. DRKs are penalized for trying to save teammates if the bubble ends up not breaking, which doesn't happen for any other tank defensive.

Or the case of SAM, who ideally wants to use their third eye as many times as possible, which can include getting hit by unintended stuff such as an autoattack in the pull. And this is without taking into account that not all encounters may have mechanics that consistently damage you for this purpose.

However, using some sort of resource to power up the jumps is an idea that could perhaps mix with my thought of making the 5th positional provide a nadi-like gauge. By making the proper combinations, the jumps would be then enhanced but I wonder if it wouldn't become too much of a mini game to do all that just to power an attack that happens once every 120s. I'd rather have my suggestion become more of an organic thing, as fluid as WWT is right now.

It can also be quite punishing to add more gauges, as DRG is one of the jobs that suffers the most from dying due to how long it takes to build them, but this could be avoided if this specific gauge tied to the 5th positional wasn't lost on death.


Piercing Talon cannot generate a scale directly per cast, as otherwise we'd again run into degenerate gameplay. The average potency of a DRG's GCD is 363 at level 90 without Power Surge. PT giving a scale would mean that you get 300 + 420 after every two uses of the weaponskill or 360 per GCD, thus making it quite viable to just spam it.

I can't right now think of something that would be 100% ideal, but things like making PT power up on its own the longer it's not used up to a point (similar to Harvest Moon), or powering it up by using our kit, or making it a combo with EJ a la SAM (but then you could just EJ for the buff and not because you want to EJ)... could perhaps work?

Maybe the best take would be to take inspiration from PvP. WWT is a long ranged GCD there, what if having two scales allowed PT to transform into a stronger ranged GCD? But then you'd have to weigh the consequences of potency loss as PT is a GCD and still has potency attached to it and WWT is an oGCD: 150 + 420 > 420 (if PT turned into a PvP-esque GCD WWT with the same potency).


I hope that the devs are giving as much thought to these matters and make the kit fun, interesting and as unique as possible without pruning much or anything at all, but that's probably just hopium given the circumstances.