Dragoon Rework

[Aco505]

I hope the HJ change is just our position staying in place with everything else untouched. I kinda like having my camera move with me when I use HJ.

It's kind of a bummer that they removed this and I wished they had left it in as an option. Right now, the character becomes a projectile during the animation, whereas before your body moved from your location to the edge of the target's hitbox. It looked and felt way better and I hope they re-adjust the camera and body animation part.

1. Remove Spineshatter Dive. (Elusive Jump is all the mobility we need + Dfd exists + 2 charges is just more bloat + it does very little damage anyway.)

2. Give Nastrond 3 charges and reduce its CD from 10s to 5s CD so we can weave it every other GCD and get rid of them sooner.

3. Give us an Eye-generating ability so we can burst on pull and so there's more depth to Gierskogul use.

4. Make a front flip version of Elusive Jump so we can use and aim it instantly even if only just saves .03 seconds of execution time. RPR already has Hell's Egress and Ingress so I don't see why not.

These would be my suggestions to make it more dynamic and less bloated/stressful during bursts.

You say SSD is bloat and should be removed and then ask for a forward EJ. That's a bit contradictory.

You want us to be able to use all three NAS in buffs. Fair, but that'd made the job busier so unless BL's duration is changed to 20s, we could be in the same situation in 7.0 even if SSD dealt no damage (although I'm personally for more oGCDs as long as they can fit and are implemented properly). Plus NAS being on a timer is also, in a sense, part of the skill ceiling of the ability so that it's used properly within BL, drifting and other similar situations notwithstanding.

Not having a full opener is part of the job's identity, even if it can feel bad. I like being way stronger than usual when I can start a fight with two eyes and/or scales. Our damage would have to be nerfed if we were to always have a LotD window in the opener.

As a non-dragoon main looking in. Keep spineshatter, but make it do no damage and rename it, think thunderclap from monk. Would satisfy point 4. Likewise rework elusive jump into an actual jump instead of a backflip. So you jump in the air, 'disappear' as your camera pans backwards to the destination, and jump down in the new spot.

Change nastrond to spend down the LotD gauge, make it a GCD, finish on the super jump. Make it a fun burst ability instead of a 30s paced ability. We already have fast and busy hypercharge (machinist,) and fast and slightly less busy hypercharge (enshroud.) Adding slow and less busy to DRG would be fine in my eyes and functionally is how LotD works anyways. A little bit of structure and speeding up the phase overall would just make it more interesting.

As for an eye generating ability, just straight up rip out the entire eye system. It's a hat-on-hat system that is as bolted on as literally all of Black Mage is. Just skip the middle man already and make it a proper structure. Needing to high jump into mirage dive to generate eyes only to gierskogul to launch it is just an actually bad system, period.

The relationship between GSK, HJ and MD is precisely what gives us flexibility to our LotD windows. Though I guess you could argue that GSK is the odd one since it has to be used on cooldown and is the ability that puts us into burst mode.

Without MD, we'd have no way to control when to enter LotD.

We should also stop asking for things to be removed or completely reworked when they are fine. Improve them or give them a better purpose but don't remove them.

This latest Dragon Sight change is quality of life, even if it does reduce the skill ceiling of the job a little in some cases, but I don't want it if it means removing positionals in any shape or form from the job in 7.0.

[Petite]

You say SSD is bloat and should be removed and then ask for a forward EJ. That's a bit contradictory.

Yo!

You speak of EJ like it’s an OGCD often used during bursts. It's not lol.

I want SSD gone because I think it feels weak, has been around since forever and occupies two OGCD slots in our 2 minute bursts. Add something new in its stead. Something more badass and which would dynamically shake up our rotation.

You want us to be able to use all three NAS in buffs. Fair, but that'd made the job busier so unless BL's duration is changed to 20s [...]

Ya got me, I didn’t think about how a 5s CD on Nastrond would force people to fit all 3 within BL's 15s window. Maybe BL needs to be 20s, maybe we need to cut 1 Nastrond and adjust its potency accordingly, I don’t know.

Still, I don’t like how we’re forced to use them over the full lenght of LotD with the last Nastrond slipping out of buffs.

Not having a full opener is part of the job's identity, even if it can feel bad.

That's a bad take. And having a gutted-2m-burst for an opener isn’t ”job identity”.

If something doesn’t feel good to play, you change it for the better. After all, SE did change RDM’s Manafont from being %-based to a flat 50/50 increase to b/w mana so it could open with the party correctly.

Besides, I believe having an eye-generating ability would be a nice opportunity to shake up DRG's rotation. Maybe add 3-4 charges for eyes instead of 2? Maybe let us consume 1 eye for a damage buff? Maybe add an aoe damage effect to that ability like Horrid Roar so it's dual-purpose? Lots of ideas just brainstorming about it.

[Aco505]

You speak of EJ like it’s an OGCD often used during bursts. It's not lol.

I want SSD gone because I think it feels weak, has been around since forever and occupies two OGCD slots in our 2 minute bursts. Add something new in its stead. Something more badass and which would dynamically shake up our rotation.

It doesn't matter, why do you want a forward EJ to bind when you could just give the job a non-damaging gap closer instead?

If SSD is weak, as you say, then improve it but don't remove it. Our attacks may seem "weak" because we deal 33% more damage during burst as we have two personal buffs and not one like most other jobs.

STD, for instance, deals 750.2 and 824.6 potency in odd and even bursts respectively. Could it be better due to it being a single weave? Yes, but it's no big deal and we definitely don't want it to go higher than base 800 potency as is sometimes suggested here and in the JP forums, where they often ask for it to be like 1000 potency.

Ya got me, I didn’t think about how a 5s CD on Nastrond would force people to fit all 3 within BL's 15s window. Maybe BL needs to be 20s, maybe we need to cut 1 Nastrond and adjust its potency accordingly, I don’t know.

Still, I don’t like how we’re forced to use them over the full lenght of LotD with the last Nastrond slipping out of buffs.

I can see the point of the 3rd NAS being weird since it's never in buffs, the question is... is that a problem in itself? I'd rather LotD as a whole interacted more with our other oGCDs or changed our GCDs in some way.

I am not opposed to having all NAS in buffs, but at the same time I wonder if everything has to be based on buffs and the burst. After all, we can't even have better control of WWT usage because our maximum amount of scales is 2, leaving us with only 5 GCDs of margin.

That's a bad take. And having a gutted-2m-burst for an opener isn’t ”job identity”.

If something doesn’t feel good to play, you change it for the better. After all, SE did change RDM’s Manafont from being %-based to a flat 50/50 increase to b/w mana so it could open with the party correctly.

Besides, I believe having an eye-generating ability would be a nice opportunity to shake up DRG's rotation. Maybe add 3-4 charges for eyes instead of 2? Maybe let us consume 1 eye for a damage buff? Maybe add an aoe damage effect to that ability like Horrid Roar so it's dual-purpose? Lots of ideas just brainstorming about it.

I don't agree that it's a bad take. There's other jobs in similar situations such as BRD and WHM, as well as gauge jobs like RDM, RPR or MCH that don't have all their possible resources in the opener.

I think it's good that we become a very strong job in those situations where we can start a fight with resources, such as the 2nd part of the 4th turn of each savage. When I say "it can feel bad", I'm talking about those who would like to have a proper opener.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like it too (it feels great to execute full reopeners like after the add phase of P3S or in ultimates), but if getting it means that the job stops having this unique feature, then what would be the point?

If DRG copies a system like the one used by RDM/RPR, what would be the difference then besides some flavor?

My point is: I'm skeptical. I'd rather not remove but improve what we have as I have said in other posts.

I cannot fully trust that the job will be changed for the better and fear the rework, because while some reworks may have been well-received by some, others made the job skeletal. Removal of things can easily lead to places we don't want to go (see SAM and SMN).

[Petite]

It doesn't matter, why do you want a forward EJ to bind when you could just give the job a non-damaging gap closer instead?

A forward EJ would help on Legacy camera controls. Right now, you have to wait for your character to be fully facing backwards for a split second or you risk it jumping sideways. I personally use an EJ macro like the one I use to make sure I jump towards the camera, but macros are clunky.

If SSD is weak, as you say, then improve it but don't remove it.

Yes of course that's another option. I just don't like SS and even DfD as they are now because they're such weak direct damage oGCDs. They're like filler oGCDs. It doesn't help that they lock you in place for a split second when using them which makes them feel very clunky when moving. I would at least hope they would make them more fluid (like you can sorta move as they drag you to your target) and also add some extra effects to them.

I can see the point of the 3rd NAS being weird since it's never in buffs, the question is... is that a problem in itself?

It's just that that last one feels superfluous as it doesn't interact with our buffs. It's not a true problem, but I still wish we had more control over our Nastrond use.

I am not opposed to having all NAS in buffs, but at the same time I wonder if everything has to be based on buffs and the burst.

If buff coordination keeps being such an important part of high end encounters, I do hope that our damage oGCDs would all fit inside buff windows.

But I wouldn't cry if SE were to do away with group damage buffs. 1-2 window party buffs are the main reason why people complain about job designs feeling homogenous. It's too constraining design-wise for uniqueness to flourish.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like it too (it feels great to execute full reopeners like after the add phase of P3S or in ultimates), but if getting it means that the job stops having this unique feature, then what would be the point? If DRG copies a system like the one used by RDM/RPR, what would be the difference then besides some flavor?

Well you admit you'd enjoy having a good opener. And I'm not saying that as a "gotcha". Weighing fun against flavor, I'm pretty sure anyone would pick fun first.

On another note, I don't agree that having a weak opener has anything to do with job flavor.

My point is: I'm skeptical. I'd rather not remove but improve what we have as I have said in other posts. [...] Removal of things can easily lead to places we don't want to go (see SAM and SMN).

I'm in the same boat. As a former SMN player in SB and ShB, its rework shocked me and I dread they do the same to DRG as it is pretty straightforward already. Its only real issues to me are that their 2 minute burst is bloated and it suffers from jump/ss/dfd/sd lock-you-in-place clunkiness.

But that doesn't stop me from wishing they innovate on it instead of playing it safe out of fear they lobotomize it the SMN way.

[Shurrikhan]

A forward EJ would help on Legacy camera controls. Right now, you have to wait for your character to be fully facing backwards for a split second or you risk it jumping sideways. I personally use an EJ macro like the one I use to make sure I jump towards the camera, but macros are clunky.

Then shouldn't we be pushing for that more universal solution that would help everyone (allowing at least the first actionable step of macros to be properly queued), instead of removing an iconic (if increasingly lackluster) skill just to make room for a duplicating of another we already have but now with /turn camera built into it?

I just don't like SS and even DfD as they are now because they're such weak direct damage oGCDs. They're like filler oGCDs. It doesn't help that they lock you in place for a split second when using them which makes them feel very clunky when moving.

Fair, but isn't that essentially because the damage value that would have gone into those skills themselves was siphoned instead into Mirage Dive? The latter makes the DRG iconicly heavy in how much it can bank, sure, but since 200 potency of each Jump (and formerly SSD) now comes in the form of Mirage Dive instead, it's little surprise that they'd feel weak in their own direct damage without their, in turn, siphoning potency from another part of the kit.

On which note, I'd be happy to have slightly less potency each on Raiden/True, Disembowel, Vorpal, WT, and F&C and move that potency instead to SSD/Jump and, especially, DFD.



Or, heck, consolidate Jump and SSD, but into a skill that just yeets the DRG up and out of the arena, avoiding most non-targeted, non-raid-wide damage, for survival befitting a job classed just under a tank for its eHP. Once up in the air, your next GCD skill is augmented, dealing additional damage and/or effect (Heavens' Thrust --> Heavensfall for a true nuke; Chaotic Spring --> Chaotic Fount, for an AoE DoT; etc.). Unique, high in utility, smooth to execute upon, and highly interactive.

[Aco505]

A forward EJ would help on Legacy camera controls. Right now, you have to wait for your character to be fully facing backwards for a split second or you risk it jumping sideways. I personally use an EJ macro like the one I use to make sure I jump towards the camera, but macros are clunky.

I play on legacy too and this is not really an issue unless you need to time extremely tight EJs to keep uptime, which hasn't been a thing even on P4-2S when you could use it before the animation lock reduction to keep full uptime in Act 3.

Yes of course that's another option. I just don't like SS and even DfD as they are now because they're such weak direct damage oGCDs. They're like filler oGCDs.

Which is why they need a better purpose, especially DFD. Also animation locks are part of DRG, it's normal that it requires more effort for us to move during bursts.

Well you admit you'd enjoy having a good opener. And I'm not saying that as a "gotcha". Weighing fun against flavor, I'm pretty sure anyone would pick fun first.

On another note, I don't agree that having a weak opener has anything to do with job flavor.

The point is that if we had a normal opener, we wouldn't be as strong as we can be with full resources and our new opener wouldn't be like the reopeners you get in fights like P3S or ultimate phases after downtime because in these we have to press more oGCDs than a normal even-minute window and SE doesn't want that. We'd have one more LotD but oGCDs would be cut somewhere else.

There's also nothing wrong with having a job (or jobs) in the game that ramp up slowly. MNK is similar: they don't have their strongest hit in their opener or any even-minute window unless they manipulate their blitzes if the encounter allows it.

Its only real issues to me are that their 2 minute burst is bloated and it suffers from jump/ss/dfd/sd lock-you-in-place clunkiness.

What you call bloated (number of oGCDs used) and clunkiness is what many veteran DRG mains love. EW DRG is the best it's ever been precisely because of the way you can machine-gun all your oGCDs in burst in a similar way to DRK and GNB and I hope it stays that way.