Dragoon Rework

[Shurrikhan]

What I don't want is to copy systems like Enshroud, something often suggested in these forums. We don't need LotD to become a carbon copy of it with three uses of NAS and STD ending the Life state. I'd rather keep DRG as unique to itself as possible.

This I don't quite understand. Not wanting it to be like something else is fair enough, but there is difference in practice between having LotD last a fixed duration and having LotD wear off after 3 Nostronds + Stardiver, except in that the prior prevents you from queuing your next Geirskogul as quickly as you would otherwise be able, ultimately contributing to Geirskogul drift*. It's simply a very modest QoL nerf that otherwise functions identically. If we arbitrarily prevented Lance Charge from being queued, it could be "more unique," I suppose, but not for any good reason.

* Yes, SkS of course can add to this. If GSK falls from 12 GCDs to a non-integer nor half-integer (11.5, 10.5, etc.) value, then one is forced eventually either to either delay their GCD or delay GSK, making its CD effectively longer. But, the mere fact you can't queue it until its cooldown has already completed also worsens this, especially for higher-ping players. If we wanted to deal with that, we could uniquely make that ability scale with GCD speed (as HW Empyreal Arrow used to despite being effectively an ability [wasn't delayed by / didn't respect the GCD]), but then it'd become slightly less accessible to players wanting to sync it to minute-to-minute or per-2-minute rotations.

The ability to have a maximum of 3 scales while keeping the Wyrmwind Thrust cost at 2 for more flexibility.

Sure, but then you start ending up with WWT feeling even less of a rhythmic attack. It can currently already be banked for up to 4 GCDs time, or 10 seconds pre-SkS. Push that up a third scale for 9 GCDs' banking, and it can be held for 22.5 seconds pre-SkS. I'm not especially opposed to the idea, but that does seem excessive.

A defensive of some kind, at least a passive 5% damage reduction with a heal popping when low HP or something.

I wouldn't mind seeing the armor value of Maiming increased for a bit more distinction, if we're to force 1 of 4 whole armor classes onto just those two jobs anyways, but I'd honestly like to see more done, for defensive purposes, with just the existing kit, even if that means risking desync or those broadly abhorred priority conflicts / decisions to be made. For instance, just not nerfing the shit out of Life Surge would be a huge boon for Dragoon's self-sustain. Or, say, giving a bit of added mitigation while they're mid-jump/dive.

<Everything else>

Agreed.

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My own $0.02:

I'm basically fine with Dragoon as is except in that...

• Stardiver, Dragonfire Dive, and Mirage Dive feel underwhelming, and so I'd like to see more potency siphoned into the first two and the second vitalized/made 'cooler' in some further way,
  
  
• If there's to be no advantage in holding LotD beyond 3 NAS and STD, just drop it after those skills so we can Geirskogul on time (or at the very least reduce the duration of LotD by a half-second),
  
  
• True Thrust and Doom Spike still existing just seems like an opener tax, and so I'd prefer either (A) that the Scale cost be reduced to 1 and True Thrust and Doom Spike are alternated in every other time for their animation variance or (B) that they just upgraded to Raiden and Draconian, respectively, and instead grant Scales on the combo-finishers,
  
  
• DRG currently uniquely has the least freedom of timing in its positionals, despite being arguably the job that should be least constrained by them, so we may as well make F&C and WT usable in either order,
  
  
• Elusive Jump needn't be such a long CD (shorten to 15-20s),
  
  
• Dragonsight needs revision to be less clunky, someway, somehow (personally, like Aco, I'd go with upgrading Lance Charge to Dragonsight and then having your dragon skills simply buff the nearest party Damage Dealer for the remaining duration on Dragon Sight, if any [closest party member otherwise], or the like), and ideally..
  
  
• I'd love to be able to freely swap between combos, with just all three opening up the other two as well (Doomspike->Sonic Thrust->Chaos Thrust->WF->F&C or Raiden->Disembowel->LS-Coerthan->WF->F&C, etc), per DRG's sort of "combo master" identity and to open up a bit more AoE -> ST focus target interplay (this would ultimately change nothing outside of adds and forced melee-downtime scenarios, since you'd always open with both your buff and DoT anyways, but would be a fun and decently thematic extra feature that'd cause our combos to feel less like button bloat).

[Aco505]

This I don't quite understand.

I simply don't want LotD to be a copy of Enshroud because the two are not the same. I'd rather they made the LotD timer matter by having the state modify our kit in some way.

The GSK drift should be fixed but it's not gamebreaking and is an annoyance in full uptime scenarios (mostly when fights take longer than 8:30 minutes). If BL's duration is increased to 20s for the DRG, GSK drift will be less of a problem.

If they can't fix the way it works directly, then I can only see a solution if GSK had no CD but could only be used with two eyes. This has other implications so I won't dwell too much on it.

then you start ending up with WWT feeling even less of a rhythmic attack.

WWT is meant to be a flexible oGCD but it's not in practice, as right now you only have 12.5s at 2.5 GCD to use it and it takes a whole 25s to get two scales. With this change, the threshold to avoid overcapping also moves to 25s, thus allowing for more flexibility. The amount of WWT uses per minute doesn't change in any way.

If there's to be no advantage in holding LotD beyond 3 NAS and STD, just drop it after those skills so we can Geirskogul on time (or at the very least reduce the duration of LotD by a half-second)

Moving the timer can have consequences when optimizing fights and doing double Life windows back to back, which is why it's probably best not to touch that.

True Thrust and Doom Spike still existing just seems like an opener tax

The job is already taxed enough in normal encounters by having no opener (and at the same time very good in encounters where you can hold resources, which is also part of its uniqueness despite the fact that it does feel bad to have an opener without your gauges).

As it's a difference of 50 potency between TT and RT and is mostly an OCD thing of mine since I dislike TT's animation compared to RT's, they should just replace them. Everything works the same, it's just the buff of Draconian Fire granting the scale and not the weaponskills on their own.

Granting scales with the 5th positional can be good for the opener, but then it can put some WWTs out of buffs in specific burst windows unless the 3 scale solution is implemented.

having your dragon skills simply buff the nearest party Damage Dealer for the remaining duration on Dragon Sight

Just remove the partner buff entirely and give the damage to the DRG. I'd personally prefer if the job was less supportive and BL is already one of the strongest buffs due to how much potential damage it can bring to specific compositions, but taking away the DS partner buff would also mean that you don't have to rely that much on having a specific melee to be buffed whereas BL is more equal in how much contribution anyone can provide in it.

That said, if the tether returned, I'd be happy to keep the ability as is.

[primarisgoazrr]

- I definitely agree with Spinshatter and Dragonfire dive, maybe make a 3 stack gauge that they interact with. Spineshatter gives you 1 stack and Dragonfire gives you 2, and when the gauge fills it turned Dragonfire Dive into a stronger jump (Dragon Inferno Dive, if we’re giving it a name lol). Also I think lowering Dragonfire Dive to 60 sec cooldown wouldn’t be too crazy of an ask at this point

- I’m not so sure I agree with making Dragon Sight an upgrade, although it would be less to deal, I think should just be a party buff. The DRG still gets 10% and everyone else get 5% (although I imagine it probably be lowered to like 2/3%). I do like your Battle Liteny idea too with DRG getting the bigger buff

- I’ve always thought that Life of the Dragon should give an over all damage buff of 5% but it would also be cool if all our GCDs changed to an upgraded state. (Ex: Azure Raiden Thrust > Azure Voroal Thrust > Azure Heavens Thrust etc.). I think either or would be cool, just something to make the form feel more powerful.

- honestly I think Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust should be separate again. Fang and Claw should have higher potency(380 normal/ 420 flank maybe) and Wheeling Thrust should add a short but slightly stronger DoT if you hit the rear (60 potency for 8/10 sec). Also I think they should be one button as in when you do Heaven’s Thrust combo, Fang and Claw appears and so on

- I definitely agree with Stardiver, it’s crazy how every other DPS has an 1000 potency move or move the does 750/800 potency but also has a combo to it. I think if they aren’t gonna buff it we should at least get 2 uses during LoTD

I’ve definitely wanted a transformation type system for DRG since Heavensward, but now that reaper has I definitely think it’s time to let that ship sail. I think a lot of these changes would DRG unique and fun, let’s SE is reading the forums

[Shurrikhan]

WWT is meant to be a flexible oGCD but it's not in practice, as right now you only have 12.5s at 2.5 GCD to use it and it takes a whole 25s to get two scales. With this change, the threshold to avoid overcapping also moves to 25s, thus allowing for more flexibility. The amount of WWT uses per minute doesn't change in any way.

Having 50% of its cap time to be banked is... pretty darn bankable. That's the same as Ninja or Reaper's gauges, for instance, and far superior to the likes of Chakra. I wouldn't hate it being more, but by then you're looking at trying to fit every 3rd into LC, specifically, instead of it being primarily a rhythmic element; it'll have changed the feel and function of that ability (which thus far is our main basis for guessing what its "intent" was).

Moving the timer can have consequences when optimizing fights and doing double Life windows back to back, which is why it's probably best not to touch that.

The timer is ultimately still just based on Gierskogul. So now your GSK's are 30s apart, exactly, instead of 30 - 31 seconds apart based on ping, reflex, and speed of button-mashing. No part of allowing DRG to see and therefore queue the GSK timer as soon as they've used up all LotD offers has to remove the NAS ICD.

The job is already taxed enough in normal encounters by having no opener

Sorry if my derision as to that "opener tax" wasn't clear enough. I don't think it needs, deserves, or ought to have that penalty. For that reason, I prefer that the scales just come directly from the 5th GCD, rather than the "6th-kinda-turned-1st?" especially if RT and DF became direct upgrades.

As it's a difference of 50 potency between TT and RT and is mostly an OCD thing of mine since I dislike TT's animation compared to RT's, they should just replace them. Everything works the same, it's just the buff of Draconian Fire granting the scale and not the weaponskills on their own.

Again, I'd be fine with either. I don't mind TT's and DS's animation, and so though I prefer RT and DF's, I wouldn't mind alternating between them.

Just remove the partner buff entirely and give the damage to the DRG. I'd personally prefer if the job was less supportive and BL is already one of the strongest buffs due to how much potential damage it can bring to specific compositions, but taking away the DS partner buff would also mean that you don't have to rely that much on having a specific melee to be buffed whereas BL is more equal in how much contribution anyone can provide in it.

That said, if the tether returned, I'd be happy to keep the ability as is.

I'd be fine with that, too (though I understand why re-adding garish visual clutter would have any impact on DS's being a good idea or not); I just like the idea of pulling a bit more draconic and strike-leader-esque themes out of DRG where convenient.

(Thematically, if anything, I'd slightly rather have DS remain over BL, with more of a tag-team aspect, even if that does mean being slightly more dependent specifically on another DPS. That DRG's raidbuff aids even heals while Bard's and Monk's do not, moreover, has always felt weird.)

[ZiraZ]

Also increase its radius (and all buffs') to 20y just like BRD's.

Well at least we got this for 6.4, not exactly sure how I feel about the high jump change, I hope they don't go overboard and turn all jumps purely into animations

[Aco505]

Well at least we got this for 6.4, not exactly sure how I feel about the high jump change, I hope they don't go overboard and turn all jumps purely into animations

30y seems like too much but I'll take it. It'll allow them to design encounters without having to worry about range.

I hope the HJ change is just our position staying in place with everything else untouched. I kinda like having my camera move with me when I use HJ. I wonder if their code allows for that? Hopefully it's not some kind of shade or illusion attacking...

[Petite]

1. Remove Spineshatter Dive. (Elusive Jump is all the mobility we need + Dfd exists + 2 charges is just more bloat + it does very little damage anyway.)

2. Give Nastrond 3 charges and reduce its CD from 10s to 5s CD so we can weave it every other GCD and get rid of them sooner.

3. Give us an Eye-generating ability so we can burst on pull and so there's more depth to Gierskogul use.

4. Make a front flip version of Elusive Jump so we can use and aim it instantly even if only just saves .03 seconds of execution time. RPR already has Hell's Egress and Ingress so I don't see why not.

These would be my suggestions to make it more dynamic and less bloated/stressful during bursts.

[Taranok]

1. Remove Spineshatter Dive. (Elusive Jump is all the mobility we need + Dfd exists + 2 charges is just more bloat + it does very little damage anyway.)

2. Give Nastrond 3 charges and reduce its CD from 10s to 5s CD so we can weave it every other GCD and get rid of them sooner.

3. Give us an Eye-generating ability so we can burst on pull and so there's more depth to Gierskogul use.

4. Make a front flip version of Elusive Jump so we can use and aim it instantly even if only just saves .03 seconds of execution time. RPR already has Hell's Egress and Ingress so I don't see why not.

These would be my suggestions to make it more dynamic and less bloated/stressful during bursts.

As a non-dragoon main looking in. Keep spineshatter, but make it do no damage and rename it, think thunderclap from monk. Would satisfy point 4. Likewise rework elusive jump into an actual jump instead of a backflip. So you jump in the air, 'disappear' as your camera pans backwards to the destination, and jump down in the new spot.

Change nastrond to spend down the LotD gauge, make it a GCD, finish on the super jump. Make it a fun burst ability instead of a 30s paced ability. We already have fast and busy hypercharge (machinist,) and fast and slightly less busy hypercharge (enshroud.) Adding slow and less busy to DRG would be fine in my eyes and functionally is how LotD works anyways. A little bit of structure and speeding up the phase overall would just make it more interesting.

As for an eye generating ability, just straight up rip out the entire eye system. It's a hat-on-hat system that is as bolted on as literally all of Black Mage is. Just skip the middle man already and make it a proper structure. Needing to high jump into mirage dive to generate eyes only to gierskogul to launch it is just an actually bad system, period.

[Aco505]

I hope the HJ change is just our position staying in place with everything else untouched. I kinda like having my camera move with me when I use HJ.

It's kind of a bummer that they removed this and I wished they had left it in as an option. Right now, the character becomes a projectile during the animation, whereas before your body moved from your location to the edge of the target's hitbox. It looked and felt way better and I hope they re-adjust the camera and body animation part.

1. Remove Spineshatter Dive. (Elusive Jump is all the mobility we need + Dfd exists + 2 charges is just more bloat + it does very little damage anyway.)

2. Give Nastrond 3 charges and reduce its CD from 10s to 5s CD so we can weave it every other GCD and get rid of them sooner.

3. Give us an Eye-generating ability so we can burst on pull and so there's more depth to Gierskogul use.

4. Make a front flip version of Elusive Jump so we can use and aim it instantly even if only just saves .03 seconds of execution time. RPR already has Hell's Egress and Ingress so I don't see why not.

These would be my suggestions to make it more dynamic and less bloated/stressful during bursts.

You say SSD is bloat and should be removed and then ask for a forward EJ. That's a bit contradictory.

You want us to be able to use all three NAS in buffs. Fair, but that'd made the job busier so unless BL's duration is changed to 20s, we could be in the same situation in 7.0 even if SSD dealt no damage (although I'm personally for more oGCDs as long as they can fit and are implemented properly). Plus NAS being on a timer is also, in a sense, part of the skill ceiling of the ability so that it's used properly within BL, drifting and other similar situations notwithstanding.

Not having a full opener is part of the job's identity, even if it can feel bad. I like being way stronger than usual when I can start a fight with two eyes and/or scales. Our damage would have to be nerfed if we were to always have a LotD window in the opener.

As a non-dragoon main looking in. Keep spineshatter, but make it do no damage and rename it, think thunderclap from monk. Would satisfy point 4. Likewise rework elusive jump into an actual jump instead of a backflip. So you jump in the air, 'disappear' as your camera pans backwards to the destination, and jump down in the new spot.

Change nastrond to spend down the LotD gauge, make it a GCD, finish on the super jump. Make it a fun burst ability instead of a 30s paced ability. We already have fast and busy hypercharge (machinist,) and fast and slightly less busy hypercharge (enshroud.) Adding slow and less busy to DRG would be fine in my eyes and functionally is how LotD works anyways. A little bit of structure and speeding up the phase overall would just make it more interesting.

As for an eye generating ability, just straight up rip out the entire eye system. It's a hat-on-hat system that is as bolted on as literally all of Black Mage is. Just skip the middle man already and make it a proper structure. Needing to high jump into mirage dive to generate eyes only to gierskogul to launch it is just an actually bad system, period.

The relationship between GSK, HJ and MD is precisely what gives us flexibility to our LotD windows. Though I guess you could argue that GSK is the odd one since it has to be used on cooldown and is the ability that puts us into burst mode.

Without MD, we'd have no way to control when to enter LotD.

We should also stop asking for things to be removed or completely reworked when they are fine. Improve them or give them a better purpose but don't remove them.

This latest Dragon Sight change is quality of life, even if it does reduce the skill ceiling of the job a little in some cases, but I don't want it if it means removing positionals in any shape or form from the job in 7.0.

[Petite]

You say SSD is bloat and should be removed and then ask for a forward EJ. That's a bit contradictory.

Yo!

You speak of EJ like it’s an OGCD often used during bursts. It's not lol.

I want SSD gone because I think it feels weak, has been around since forever and occupies two OGCD slots in our 2 minute bursts. Add something new in its stead. Something more badass and which would dynamically shake up our rotation.

You want us to be able to use all three NAS in buffs. Fair, but that'd made the job busier so unless BL's duration is changed to 20s [...]

Ya got me, I didn’t think about how a 5s CD on Nastrond would force people to fit all 3 within BL's 15s window. Maybe BL needs to be 20s, maybe we need to cut 1 Nastrond and adjust its potency accordingly, I don’t know.

Still, I don’t like how we’re forced to use them over the full lenght of LotD with the last Nastrond slipping out of buffs.

Not having a full opener is part of the job's identity, even if it can feel bad.

That's a bad take. And having a gutted-2m-burst for an opener isn’t ”job identity”.

If something doesn’t feel good to play, you change it for the better. After all, SE did change RDM’s Manafont from being %-based to a flat 50/50 increase to b/w mana so it could open with the party correctly.

Besides, I believe having an eye-generating ability would be a nice opportunity to shake up DRG's rotation. Maybe add 3-4 charges for eyes instead of 2? Maybe let us consume 1 eye for a damage buff? Maybe add an aoe damage effect to that ability like Horrid Roar so it's dual-purpose? Lots of ideas just brainstorming about it.