Dragoon Rework

[Petite]

I really like most of your suggestions. I added some personal takes in blue:

- Allow the 4th and 5th positional to be used in any order.
As long as both are executed to generate your next Raiden Thrust, I really like this one.


- Return the blue Blood of the Dragon aura when we have one or more dragon eyes.
Totally. I don’t know why they got rid of it. Give it back some of its flair: Faded blue for one eye, deep blue for 2 eyes before entering Life.


- Tune GSK in some way [B]so that it doesn't drift.
Maybe lowering its CD to 28s?


- The ability to have a maximum of 3 scales while keeping the Wyrmwind Thrust cost at 2 for more flexibility.

- A defensive of some kind

- Actual interaction for Spineshatter Dive and Dragonfire Dive
Please entertain this idea of mine:

Increase the number of scales we can hold at once to 3 or 4 and give DRG a « Blackest Night » type ability that grants a 20% HP damage barrier lasting 5s at the cost of 1 scale.
• If the barrier breaks once, DfD changes to a new weaponskill named Charged DfD, dealing 510 potency. Same animation, but the flames are now red and blue.
• If the barrier breaks a second time, Charge DfD changes to yet another new weaponskill called Supercharged DfD, dealing 780 potency. Same animation, but the flames are now red and purple

The gist is that you spend scales (worth 210 potency each) to charge up DfD. Risk+Reward type of deal :

• 0 breaks = 300 (DfD) + 420 = 720 total potency
• 1 break = 570 (Charged DfD) + 210 (1 scale spent) = 780 total potency
• 2 breaks = 850 (Supercharged DfD) + 0 (2 scales spent) = 850 total potency

With this, DRG would get acquire a new objective, which would be to break the barrier twice between every 2 minute burst. It would also add more planning on when you want to spend those scales.

Edit: I realize it would be too punishing if you miss the barrier break or need to use it even after two breaks. Needs more tweaking, but you get the gist.


- Make Piercing Talon not useless.
Maybe have it generate a scale? With the increased scale cap you suggested, I figure it would be a welcomed modification.


- Upgrade Vorpal Thrust's animation.
- Make the positional in the 5th GCD to have a new animation
Although this is a pipe dream, I would love for SE to revamp DRG’s animations and give them a more visceral feel, or at least change weaponskill animations while under LotD for added flair.
I play PGR on the side and I have to say most of DRG’s anims look dated when they're compared.

Here’s for reference :
https://youtu.be/dI4pcEg9ACI?t=75
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npxcN_loPbg

[Aco505]

I added some personal takes in blue

Lowering the cooldown of GSK could help with the drift, but it could also potentially force us into using it on hard cooldown, in order to get extra uses of it throughout an encounter instead of after the buffs are used, thus making it less intuitive than it is now. Also 28 as a number bothers my OCD so I'd stick with something like 25s, which I believe was its original cooldown in StB.

LotD actually lasts iirc 0.3s more than what it says, and then you have the extra 0.13s of drift because of the inability to queue it (and this without taking ping into account), so in order to eliminate the problem entirely, I could think of removing GSK's cooldown, but making it only usable with two eyes. However, that'd make the ability a bit hollow now since it'd only be pressed once a minute. Honestly, I'm not sure I have a definitive answer to this and I hope the devs address it the correct way and not with a workaround (if they do it at all...).


As for your suggestions on how to improve SSD and DFD, you say it yourself that it would be too punishing. You cannot tie reactive defensives to damage in this game because then you get a plethora of problems and degenerate gameplay. DRK's TBN can be skillful when used right, and extremely frustrating when it goes wrong. DRKs are penalized for trying to save teammates if the bubble ends up not breaking, which doesn't happen for any other tank defensive.

Or the case of SAM, who ideally wants to use their third eye as many times as possible, which can include getting hit by unintended stuff such as an autoattack in the pull. And this is without taking into account that not all encounters may have mechanics that consistently damage you for this purpose.

However, using some sort of resource to power up the jumps is an idea that could perhaps mix with my thought of making the 5th positional provide a nadi-like gauge. By making the proper combinations, the jumps would be then enhanced but I wonder if it wouldn't become too much of a mini game to do all that just to power an attack that happens once every 120s. I'd rather have my suggestion become more of an organic thing, as fluid as WWT is right now.

It can also be quite punishing to add more gauges, as DRG is one of the jobs that suffers the most from dying due to how long it takes to build them, but this could be avoided if this specific gauge tied to the 5th positional wasn't lost on death.


Piercing Talon cannot generate a scale directly per cast, as otherwise we'd again run into degenerate gameplay. The average potency of a DRG's GCD is 363 at level 90 without Power Surge. PT giving a scale would mean that you get 300 + 420 after every two uses of the weaponskill or 360 per GCD, thus making it quite viable to just spam it.

I can't right now think of something that would be 100% ideal, but things like making PT power up on its own the longer it's not used up to a point (similar to Harvest Moon), or powering it up by using our kit, or making it a combo with EJ a la SAM (but then you could just EJ for the buff and not because you want to EJ)... could perhaps work?

Maybe the best take would be to take inspiration from PvP. WWT is a long ranged GCD there, what if having two scales allowed PT to transform into a stronger ranged GCD? But then you'd have to weigh the consequences of potency loss as PT is a GCD and still has potency attached to it and WWT is an oGCD: 150 + 420 > 420 (if PT turned into a PvP-esque GCD WWT with the same potency).


I hope that the devs are giving as much thought to these matters and make the kit fun, interesting and as unique as possible without pruning much or anything at all, but that's probably just hopium given the circumstances.

[Petite]

As for your suggestions on how to improve SSD and DFD, you say it yourself that it would be too punishing. You cannot tie reactive defensives to damage in this game because then you get a plethora of problems and degenerate gameplay.

Piercing Talon cannot generate a scale directly per cast, as otherwise we'd again run into degenerate gameplay. The average potency of a DRG's GCD is 363 at level 90 without Power Surge. PT giving a scale would mean that you get 300 + 420 after every two uses of the weaponskill or 360 per GCD, thus making it quite viable to just spam it.

Reevaluating my previous « Blackest Night » proposition from my last post I think I worked out a much better system.

If I remember correctly, our rotation drifts forward by two GCDs every 2 minutes. That leaves me with 2 GCDs to work with. That said; what if you could power-up DfD using PT?

This change would :
• Give purpose to PT so it can be used in rotation;
• Flexibility when briefly disconnected from our target as our rotation would be undisturbed;
• By having all 3 options be of roughly equal potencies we could choose if we want to speed up our GCD rotation (no PT) keep it the same (1 PT) or delay it (2 PT) to adjust to our buffs coming back up.

Here would be the changes needed to make this system work. Keep in mind, the potencies are roughtly thought up and not mathed out. This is just to expain how the system would work.

Piercing talon :
Potency : 255 (increased from 150)
Grants a stack of Wuthering Flames.
*New animation please*

Dragonfire Dive :
Potency : 300 (unchanged)
At 1 stack of Wuthering Flames, DfD changes into Charged DfD.

Charged Dragonfire Dive (CDfD) :
Potency : 450
At 2 stacks of Wuthering Flames, changes into Supercharged DfD.
*CDfD has a new animation and new icon*


Supercharged Dragonfire Dive (SDfD):
Potency : 500
Additional effect : Grants 20 potency of fire-aspected damage to your next 5 weaponskills .
Consumes all stacks of Wuthering Flames.
*SDfD has a new animation and new icon*


I'm pretty satisfied with this proposed system. It's simple, easy, adds flexibility and a bit of decision-making.

[Shurrikhan]

...

Feels just a tiny bit gimmicky, but I like the result (able to correct/delay up to 2 GCD per 2 minutes at a cost of 5|10 potency).

The largest change here is honestly just the ppgcd increase to 250 base. DRG's appgcd when including Scale contribution is 405.

The DFD interaction merely increases Piercing Talon's ppgcd by a further 150, bringing it to 400. 10 potency to correct for 1 GCD over overclocking per minute is quite cheap and would likely make it obligatory after a point.

I feel like a way, opposite this, to rush the rotation would be a good mirror and could keep this from just becoming the new 'mostly inflexible' rotation alone?

[Aco505]

our rotation drifts forward by two GCDs every 2 minutes. That leaves me with 2 GCDs to work with. That said; what if you could power-up DfD using PT?

I wouldn't call it drift per se, it's just that the GCD string takes 25s to do, and all CDs are multiples of 30, thus the burst will always start and end at different GCDs. This isn't really an issue, as the gains you obtain from always getting LC/DS up after a Disembowel (best case scenario) are not that substantial.

The potency increase to PT is probably the biggest boon, as Shurrikhan says. The problem with using PT is that it deals awful damage and causes a delay of the main combo and thus scale generation, which can lead to loss of WWT uses over the fight or drifting them out of buffs.

Another problem of adding GCDs to the rotation (or disconnecting) is that the DoT from CS will fall off several seconds before you can reapply it.

Additionally, Power Surge is usually refreshed when it has around 7s left, so extra GCDs can put us in situations where the buff falls off at a specific crucial GCD that will be followed by specific oGCDs. This could happen in P2S for example because of Kampeos Harma, even if you did two CS combos in a row.

This would be solved by adjusting the timers of the DoT and Power Surge in some way though.


I'm ambivalent about making PT part of the main rotation. I think it's better if its purpose is only to keep the GCD rolling for disconnects but fixed so that it's not that awful. On the other hand, I guess it'd be a bit flavorful since we'll be throwing our spear more?

I'd prefer it if it was our main combo doing the job of powering up stuff as it'd be more integrated and organic to the overall rotation, but perhaps that's just my personal opinion.

[Petite]

1. Remove Spineshatter Dive. (Elusive Jump is all the mobility we need + Dfd exists + 2 charges is just more bloat + it does very little damage anyway.)

2. Give Nastrond 3 charges and reduce its CD from 10s to 5s CD so we can weave it every other GCD and get rid of them sooner.

3. Give us an Eye-generating ability so we can burst on pull and so there's more depth to Gierskogul use.

4. Make a front flip version of Elusive Jump so we can use and aim it instantly even if only just saves .03 seconds of execution time. RPR already has Hell's Egress and Ingress so I don't see why not.

These would be my suggestions to make it more dynamic and less bloated/stressful during bursts.

[Taranok]

1. Remove Spineshatter Dive. (Elusive Jump is all the mobility we need + Dfd exists + 2 charges is just more bloat + it does very little damage anyway.)

2. Give Nastrond 3 charges and reduce its CD from 10s to 5s CD so we can weave it every other GCD and get rid of them sooner.

3. Give us an Eye-generating ability so we can burst on pull and so there's more depth to Gierskogul use.

4. Make a front flip version of Elusive Jump so we can use and aim it instantly even if only just saves .03 seconds of execution time. RPR already has Hell's Egress and Ingress so I don't see why not.

These would be my suggestions to make it more dynamic and less bloated/stressful during bursts.

As a non-dragoon main looking in. Keep spineshatter, but make it do no damage and rename it, think thunderclap from monk. Would satisfy point 4. Likewise rework elusive jump into an actual jump instead of a backflip. So you jump in the air, 'disappear' as your camera pans backwards to the destination, and jump down in the new spot.

Change nastrond to spend down the LotD gauge, make it a GCD, finish on the super jump. Make it a fun burst ability instead of a 30s paced ability. We already have fast and busy hypercharge (machinist,) and fast and slightly less busy hypercharge (enshroud.) Adding slow and less busy to DRG would be fine in my eyes and functionally is how LotD works anyways. A little bit of structure and speeding up the phase overall would just make it more interesting.

As for an eye generating ability, just straight up rip out the entire eye system. It's a hat-on-hat system that is as bolted on as literally all of Black Mage is. Just skip the middle man already and make it a proper structure. Needing to high jump into mirage dive to generate eyes only to gierskogul to launch it is just an actually bad system, period.

[Petite]

Keep spineshatter, but make it do no damage and rename it, think thunderclap from monk. Would satisfy point 4. Likewise rework elusive jump into an actual jump instead of a backflip. So you jump in the air, 'disappear' as your camera pans backwards to the destination, and jump down in the new spot.

Change nastrond to spend down the LotD gauge, make it a GCD, finish on the super jump. Make it a fun burst ability instead of a 30s paced ability. We already have fast and busy hypercharge (machinist,) and fast and slightly less busy hypercharge (enshroud.) Adding slow and less busy to DRG would be fine in my eyes and functionally is how LotD works anyways. A little bit of structure and speeding up the phase overall would just make it more interesting.

As for an eye generating ability, just straight up rip out the entire eye system. It's a hat-on-hat system that is as bolted on as literally all of Black Mage is. Just skip the middle man already and make it a proper structure. Needing to high jump into mirage dive to generate eyes only to gierskogul to launch it is just an actually bad system, period.

I'm not sure about your 3rd point, but points 1 and 2 would work well if both were implemented. Basically removing Nastrond's CD, giving you 3 charges of it would give you complete control onto how you want to spend them. And removing SS would free up two OGCD spots in our 2min burst so it wouldn't add bloat to the sequence.

Only caveat is that a damage-less spineshatter would look weird lol. That's why I'm more in favor of a front-version EJ or even 2 charges on EJ. It's such a satisfying ability to use.

[Petite]

Then shouldn't we be pushing for that more universal solution that would help everyone (allowing at least the first actionable step of macros to be properly queued), instead of removing an iconic (if increasingly lackluster) skill just to make room for a duplicating of another we already have but now with /turn camera built into it?

Hmm, I wouldn’t say SSD is iconic at all. Jump definitely is though.

I’m not in favor of macros being smoother to use. And I don’t think it’s a tall ask to have a forward version. RPR has both after all.

I play on legacy too and this is not really an issue unless you need to time extremely tight EJs to keep uptime.

But the point still stands that it wouldn’t hurt/disrupt anybody/anything to have that option available don’t you agree? It's just QoL.

Also animation locks are part of DRG, it's normal that it requires more effort for us to move during bursts.

It’s not that it requires more effort, (it doesn’t really, just slight planning in rare instances). It’s that, to me, using them in succession -5 during our 2 min burst- feels like I'm micro-stuttering. I give a pass to Star Diver because that’s what an « ultimate » ability should feel like. I just wish we could move our characters during the animation as soon as we arrive in melee range to our targets, with one exception being Star Diver as I said previously.

.

I like current DRG, but I seem to be the only one hoping for DRG to evolve even further. Most want it to remain the same, which I understand, but I didn’t expect to also see resistance to even QoL suggestions (mine being smoother jumps and a forward version of EJ).

Feel free to disagree, I honestly don’t mind and actually like the interaction, but I wish more people would want to see new, flashy, and engaging stuff. It's like we're all too paralyzed to move forward because of the thought of SE giving DRG the SMN treatment.

[Aco505]

I wouldn't say I'm paralyzed or anything. It's more that if something has to be improved, then it should be changed but not removed.

In the first page of this thread you can see some of the ideas I have. Almost none of them require removal of things. And I'm sure there's more like those.

My main issue is that if something is removed, there is a good chance we won't be given something else in return.

I personally like being able to jump several times in a row during burst. It's something only DRG can do, so I wouldn't remove any jump and instead would even want more.