Dragoon Rework

[Petite]

It doesn't matter, why do you want a forward EJ to bind when you could just give the job a non-damaging gap closer instead?

A forward EJ would help on Legacy camera controls. Right now, you have to wait for your character to be fully facing backwards for a split second or you risk it jumping sideways. I personally use an EJ macro like the one I use to make sure I jump towards the camera, but macros are clunky.

If SSD is weak, as you say, then improve it but don't remove it.

Yes of course that's another option. I just don't like SS and even DfD as they are now because they're such weak direct damage oGCDs. They're like filler oGCDs. It doesn't help that they lock you in place for a split second when using them which makes them feel very clunky when moving. I would at least hope they would make them more fluid (like you can sorta move as they drag you to your target) and also add some extra effects to them.

I can see the point of the 3rd NAS being weird since it's never in buffs, the question is... is that a problem in itself?

It's just that that last one feels superfluous as it doesn't interact with our buffs. It's not a true problem, but I still wish we had more control over our Nastrond use.

I am not opposed to having all NAS in buffs, but at the same time I wonder if everything has to be based on buffs and the burst.

If buff coordination keeps being such an important part of high end encounters, I do hope that our damage oGCDs would all fit inside buff windows.

But I wouldn't cry if SE were to do away with group damage buffs. 1-2 window party buffs are the main reason why people complain about job designs feeling homogenous. It's too constraining design-wise for uniqueness to flourish.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like it too (it feels great to execute full reopeners like after the add phase of P3S or in ultimates), but if getting it means that the job stops having this unique feature, then what would be the point? If DRG copies a system like the one used by RDM/RPR, what would be the difference then besides some flavor?

Well you admit you'd enjoy having a good opener. And I'm not saying that as a "gotcha". Weighing fun against flavor, I'm pretty sure anyone would pick fun first.

On another note, I don't agree that having a weak opener has anything to do with job flavor.

My point is: I'm skeptical. I'd rather not remove but improve what we have as I have said in other posts. [...] Removal of things can easily lead to places we don't want to go (see SAM and SMN).

I'm in the same boat. As a former SMN player in SB and ShB, its rework shocked me and I dread they do the same to DRG as it is pretty straightforward already. Its only real issues to me are that their 2 minute burst is bloated and it suffers from jump/ss/dfd/sd lock-you-in-place clunkiness.

But that doesn't stop me from wishing they innovate on it instead of playing it safe out of fear they lobotomize it the SMN way.

[Petite]

I really like most of your suggestions. I added some personal takes in blue:

- Allow the 4th and 5th positional to be used in any order.
As long as both are executed to generate your next Raiden Thrust, I really like this one.


- Return the blue Blood of the Dragon aura when we have one or more dragon eyes.
Totally. I don’t know why they got rid of it. Give it back some of its flair: Faded blue for one eye, deep blue for 2 eyes before entering Life.


- Tune GSK in some way [B]so that it doesn't drift.
Maybe lowering its CD to 28s?


- The ability to have a maximum of 3 scales while keeping the Wyrmwind Thrust cost at 2 for more flexibility.

- A defensive of some kind

- Actual interaction for Spineshatter Dive and Dragonfire Dive
Please entertain this idea of mine:

Increase the number of scales we can hold at once to 3 or 4 and give DRG a « Blackest Night » type ability that grants a 20% HP damage barrier lasting 5s at the cost of 1 scale.
• If the barrier breaks once, DfD changes to a new weaponskill named Charged DfD, dealing 510 potency. Same animation, but the flames are now red and blue.
• If the barrier breaks a second time, Charge DfD changes to yet another new weaponskill called Supercharged DfD, dealing 780 potency. Same animation, but the flames are now red and purple

The gist is that you spend scales (worth 210 potency each) to charge up DfD. Risk+Reward type of deal :

• 0 breaks = 300 (DfD) + 420 = 720 total potency
• 1 break = 570 (Charged DfD) + 210 (1 scale spent) = 780 total potency
• 2 breaks = 850 (Supercharged DfD) + 0 (2 scales spent) = 850 total potency

With this, DRG would get acquire a new objective, which would be to break the barrier twice between every 2 minute burst. It would also add more planning on when you want to spend those scales.

Edit: I realize it would be too punishing if you miss the barrier break or need to use it even after two breaks. Needs more tweaking, but you get the gist.


- Make Piercing Talon not useless.
Maybe have it generate a scale? With the increased scale cap you suggested, I figure it would be a welcomed modification.


- Upgrade Vorpal Thrust's animation.
- Make the positional in the 5th GCD to have a new animation
Although this is a pipe dream, I would love for SE to revamp DRG’s animations and give them a more visceral feel, or at least change weaponskill animations while under LotD for added flair.
I play PGR on the side and I have to say most of DRG’s anims look dated when they're compared.

Here’s for reference :
https://youtu.be/dI4pcEg9ACI?t=75
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npxcN_loPbg

[Aco505]

I added some personal takes in blue

Lowering the cooldown of GSK could help with the drift, but it could also potentially force us into using it on hard cooldown, in order to get extra uses of it throughout an encounter instead of after the buffs are used, thus making it less intuitive than it is now. Also 28 as a number bothers my OCD so I'd stick with something like 25s, which I believe was its original cooldown in StB.

LotD actually lasts iirc 0.3s more than what it says, and then you have the extra 0.13s of drift because of the inability to queue it (and this without taking ping into account), so in order to eliminate the problem entirely, I could think of removing GSK's cooldown, but making it only usable with two eyes. However, that'd make the ability a bit hollow now since it'd only be pressed once a minute. Honestly, I'm not sure I have a definitive answer to this and I hope the devs address it the correct way and not with a workaround (if they do it at all...).


As for your suggestions on how to improve SSD and DFD, you say it yourself that it would be too punishing. You cannot tie reactive defensives to damage in this game because then you get a plethora of problems and degenerate gameplay. DRK's TBN can be skillful when used right, and extremely frustrating when it goes wrong. DRKs are penalized for trying to save teammates if the bubble ends up not breaking, which doesn't happen for any other tank defensive.

Or the case of SAM, who ideally wants to use their third eye as many times as possible, which can include getting hit by unintended stuff such as an autoattack in the pull. And this is without taking into account that not all encounters may have mechanics that consistently damage you for this purpose.

However, using some sort of resource to power up the jumps is an idea that could perhaps mix with my thought of making the 5th positional provide a nadi-like gauge. By making the proper combinations, the jumps would be then enhanced but I wonder if it wouldn't become too much of a mini game to do all that just to power an attack that happens once every 120s. I'd rather have my suggestion become more of an organic thing, as fluid as WWT is right now.

It can also be quite punishing to add more gauges, as DRG is one of the jobs that suffers the most from dying due to how long it takes to build them, but this could be avoided if this specific gauge tied to the 5th positional wasn't lost on death.


Piercing Talon cannot generate a scale directly per cast, as otherwise we'd again run into degenerate gameplay. The average potency of a DRG's GCD is 363 at level 90 without Power Surge. PT giving a scale would mean that you get 300 + 420 after every two uses of the weaponskill or 360 per GCD, thus making it quite viable to just spam it.

I can't right now think of something that would be 100% ideal, but things like making PT power up on its own the longer it's not used up to a point (similar to Harvest Moon), or powering it up by using our kit, or making it a combo with EJ a la SAM (but then you could just EJ for the buff and not because you want to EJ)... could perhaps work?

Maybe the best take would be to take inspiration from PvP. WWT is a long ranged GCD there, what if having two scales allowed PT to transform into a stronger ranged GCD? But then you'd have to weigh the consequences of potency loss as PT is a GCD and still has potency attached to it and WWT is an oGCD: 150 + 420 > 420 (if PT turned into a PvP-esque GCD WWT with the same potency).


I hope that the devs are giving as much thought to these matters and make the kit fun, interesting and as unique as possible without pruning much or anything at all, but that's probably just hopium given the circumstances.

[Petite]

As for your suggestions on how to improve SSD and DFD, you say it yourself that it would be too punishing. You cannot tie reactive defensives to damage in this game because then you get a plethora of problems and degenerate gameplay.

Piercing Talon cannot generate a scale directly per cast, as otherwise we'd again run into degenerate gameplay. The average potency of a DRG's GCD is 363 at level 90 without Power Surge. PT giving a scale would mean that you get 300 + 420 after every two uses of the weaponskill or 360 per GCD, thus making it quite viable to just spam it.

Reevaluating my previous « Blackest Night » proposition from my last post I think I worked out a much better system.

If I remember correctly, our rotation drifts forward by two GCDs every 2 minutes. That leaves me with 2 GCDs to work with. That said; what if you could power-up DfD using PT?

This change would :
• Give purpose to PT so it can be used in rotation;
• Flexibility when briefly disconnected from our target as our rotation would be undisturbed;
• By having all 3 options be of roughly equal potencies we could choose if we want to speed up our GCD rotation (no PT) keep it the same (1 PT) or delay it (2 PT) to adjust to our buffs coming back up.

Here would be the changes needed to make this system work. Keep in mind, the potencies are roughtly thought up and not mathed out. This is just to expain how the system would work.

Piercing talon :
Potency : 255 (increased from 150)
Grants a stack of Wuthering Flames.
*New animation please*

Dragonfire Dive :
Potency : 300 (unchanged)
At 1 stack of Wuthering Flames, DfD changes into Charged DfD.

Charged Dragonfire Dive (CDfD) :
Potency : 450
At 2 stacks of Wuthering Flames, changes into Supercharged DfD.
*CDfD has a new animation and new icon*


Supercharged Dragonfire Dive (SDfD):
Potency : 500
Additional effect : Grants 20 potency of fire-aspected damage to your next 5 weaponskills .
Consumes all stacks of Wuthering Flames.
*SDfD has a new animation and new icon*


I'm pretty satisfied with this proposed system. It's simple, easy, adds flexibility and a bit of decision-making.

[Shurrikhan]

...

Feels just a tiny bit gimmicky, but I like the result (able to correct/delay up to 2 GCD per 2 minutes at a cost of 5|10 potency).

The largest change here is honestly just the ppgcd increase to 250 base. DRG's appgcd when including Scale contribution is 405.

The DFD interaction merely increases Piercing Talon's ppgcd by a further 150, bringing it to 400. 10 potency to correct for 1 GCD over overclocking per minute is quite cheap and would likely make it obligatory after a point.

I feel like a way, opposite this, to rush the rotation would be a good mirror and could keep this from just becoming the new 'mostly inflexible' rotation alone?

[Petite]

Feels just a tiny bit gimmicky, but I like the result (able to correct/delay up to 2 GCD per 2 minutes at a cost of 5|10 potency).

The largest change here is honestly just the ppgcd increase to 250 base. DRG's appgcd when including Scale contribution is 405.

The DFD interaction merely increases Piercing Talon's ppgcd by a further 150, bringing it to 400. 10 potency to correct for 1 GCD over overclocking per minute is quite cheap and would likely make it obligatory after a point.

I feel like a way, opposite this, to rush the rotation would be a good mirror and could keep this from just becoming the new 'mostly inflexible' rotation alone?

In my mind, the "2x PT for a Supercharged DfD" was meant to be the optimal route, but I guess I messed up and made the potencies too low.

But are you saying you'd rather have all 3 routes (0PT, 1PT, 2PT) be equal in total potency? That could also be a better option actually. I edited my previous post to reflect that.

As you said, it would let us decide if we want to speed up or delay our GCD rotation depending on when our buffs are coming back up.

[Shurrikhan]

In my mind, the "2x PT for a Supercharged DfD" was meant to be the optimal route, but I guess I messed up and made the potencies too low.

It still likely would be, for the simple fact that you could better control what GCDs fall into your 2-minute burst window.

But are you saying you'd rather have all 3 routes (0PT, 1PT, 2PT) be equal in total potency? That could also be a better option actually.

Somewhat.

What came to mind was more of how high-SkS ARR, HW, and early (pre-Lance Mastery buff) StB DRG played (able to squeeze in an extra Full Thrust via delayed PB/HT reapplications in ARR; able to maintain CT cleave across multiple enemies while still getting in LS-Full Thrusts on CD when WT/F&C relative potency was low and LotD duration would otherwise be >21s in early StB; or by cutting out a Dragon GCD that wouldn't ultimately offer an extra Gierskogul in HW)...

...or how Shadowbringers SAM had different looping options based on GCD speed (though its BiS 'base' rotation overclocked by 3 GCDs, it could effectively pace itself for 3 GCDs' overclocking or underclocking relative to that BiS rotation) via MKSS not being used on Yukikaze, varying Higanbana between Yuki or Kasha/Gekko drops, and via Yaten-Enpi.

The latter, especially, was thereby much more able to adapt while still feeling very deliberate.

Essentially, is there perhaps anything that can be done within/despite our long combo strings that could offer the rotation a bit more nuance and ingenuity that'd also help with perfecting later burst windows' GCD alignment?

[Aco505]

our rotation drifts forward by two GCDs every 2 minutes. That leaves me with 2 GCDs to work with. That said; what if you could power-up DfD using PT?

I wouldn't call it drift per se, it's just that the GCD string takes 25s to do, and all CDs are multiples of 30, thus the burst will always start and end at different GCDs. This isn't really an issue, as the gains you obtain from always getting LC/DS up after a Disembowel (best case scenario) are not that substantial.

The potency increase to PT is probably the biggest boon, as Shurrikhan says. The problem with using PT is that it deals awful damage and causes a delay of the main combo and thus scale generation, which can lead to loss of WWT uses over the fight or drifting them out of buffs.

Another problem of adding GCDs to the rotation (or disconnecting) is that the DoT from CS will fall off several seconds before you can reapply it.

Additionally, Power Surge is usually refreshed when it has around 7s left, so extra GCDs can put us in situations where the buff falls off at a specific crucial GCD that will be followed by specific oGCDs. This could happen in P2S for example because of Kampeos Harma, even if you did two CS combos in a row.

This would be solved by adjusting the timers of the DoT and Power Surge in some way though.


I'm ambivalent about making PT part of the main rotation. I think it's better if its purpose is only to keep the GCD rolling for disconnects but fixed so that it's not that awful. On the other hand, I guess it'd be a bit flavorful since we'll be throwing our spear more?

I'd prefer it if it was our main combo doing the job of powering up stuff as it'd be more integrated and organic to the overall rotation, but perhaps that's just my personal opinion.

[Petite]

Another problem of adding GCDs to the rotation (or disconnecting) is that the DoT from CS will fall off several seconds before you can reapply it.

Additionally, Power Surge is usually refreshed when it has around 7s left, so extra GCDs can put us in situations where the buff falls off at a specific crucial GCD that will be followed by specific oGCDs.
This would be solved by adjusting the timers of the DoT and Power Surge in some way though.

Yup exactly. CS’s dot and Power Surge’s durations would need to be adjusted a bit.

I'm ambivalent about making PT part of the main rotation. I think it's better if its purpose is only to keep the GCD rolling for disconnects but fixed so that it's not that awful. On the other hand, I guess it'd be a bit flavorful since we'll be throwing our spear more?

The way I saw it after reading Shurrikhan’s suggestion, it wouldn’t be about forcing PT into the rotation like I initialy envisionned. If the « 0PT, 1PT, 2PT » routes were to be of similar potencies to one another, the whole system would be utilized as a way to give us more flexibility when disconnected from our targets as well as let us influence where, in our GCD rotation, we’d want our buffs to allign.

Example: I’m at Disembowel and my buffs are coming back up in 2 GCD, I could delay my rotation with two PTs. Using the two PTs by themselves would be a dps loss, but they would later buy-back their uses becasue DfD would have become more powerful from the two PT charges I had generated. That way, no damage loss would occur and we'll have gained a better buff starting point. The potencies would need to be adjusted carefully for that system to work as a « flexibility » option and not as the optimal route to follow.