Do people not care enough or does the game do a bad job at teaching?

[Jeeqbit]

This game doesn't want us to know how often DoTs tick and for how much or what crit and DH actually do or what action weaving is and how it relates to animation locks. Concepts such as "but how much is Aero worth compared to a Stone cast" should not eb relegated to the realm of esoteric third source research.

You can see how often DoTs tick if you watch the flytext damage happening on the target, or apply a heal regen to yourself. For weaving, oGCDs are distinguished by the word "Ability" and GCDs by "Spell" or "Weaponskill" and don't show as being unusable after pressing a GCD. Knowing what Crit and DH do in detail isn't particularly necessary because you can just stack it based on the description alone and assume it increases damage.

They could have some sort of advanced tutorial to explain the rotation and all of these concepts, but it's not like it's impossible to figure out on your own and it's especially not if this isn't your first MMORPG.

Here's the thing, you are never going to change the super casual. They view the MMO in a totally different light than you. By you, I mean the players who want to play their jobs well.

It's not a "problem." It's just the way things are and it's been going on since the very first games were created. For every chess player attempting to be a grandmaster, there are a hundred who just play chess as a game.

This is the truth and I am content with it. Would it even be any fun if people weren't dying in dungeons so that I have to rescue them and work around them? Then I would never have to interrupt my broil for so much as a Rescue or have to figure out how to Broil while saving people.

[Bsrking5]

I mean okay, sure, but also that's not even relevant information for playing proficiently through the MSQ duties. The game gives you everything you need to succeed at the basic MSQ.

This is to say that the bar is incredibly low, and that the casuals of this game don't care enough to even reach the lowest necessary standards.

It's so low as a dps you can afk easily and pass by the effort of other players.

[Deceptus]

Both. Hall of the novice was a decent idea but it really needed expanded upon (Hall of the Intermediate, Hall of the expert) to show the finer points of your role (GDC optimization, movement, etc etc)

But since the game never teaches players that we have people who don't understand that AoE is a thing or that they need to actually upgrade their gear in 10 levels.

[Kacho_Nacho]

You can see how often DoTs tick if you watch the flytext damage happening on the target, or apply a heal regen to yourself. For weaving, oGCDs are distinguished by the word "Ability" and GCDs by "Spell" or "Weaponskill" and don't show as being unusable after pressing a GCD. Knowing what Crit and DH do in detail isn't particularly necessary because you can just stack it based on the description alone and assume it increases damage.

They could have some sort of advanced tutorial to explain the rotation and all of these concepts, but it's not like it's impossible to figure out on your own and it's especially not if this isn't your first MMORPG.

This is the truth and I am content with it. Would it even be any fun if people weren't dying in dungeons so that I have to rescue them and work around them? Then I would never have to interrupt my broil for so much as a Rescue or have to figure out how to Broil while saving people.

/chuckle

C'mon, admit it. You like it when things go off the rails. It gives you something to do.

Smooth runs are boring! Give me an Alliance run where everyone in my group, but me and the tank, dies to an avoidable cleave, and I'm playing as a red mage instead of a healer.

That's where the real fun is! As Richard says, "Challenge accepted."

LFG Slaughter Your World

[Amenara]

The game does a bad job with tutorials using an antiquated text box instead of having you interact with the game or actually showing you things in the game, hall of the novice is woefully out of date and nothing forces you to do it, there is no reason to get better at the game as pretty much everything outside of 8 person content is soloable and not difficult, and SE shows no will or inclination to making the game better for lower level players or helping them learn the absolute basics of the game.

I want them to turn the tutorials into an interactive thing where it has you actually click through the menus in the game to show you where things are instead of having an easily ignored or even not noticed pop up wall of text. I want them to have a tutorial scripted fight towards the beginning that shows you how combos work, how to read tooltips, GCDs vs oGCDs, etc during a real combat situation. Lastly I think it's been said multiple times but I want the game to have a more in depth, up to date hall of the novice for new players to have to go through before Satasha so they can learn more of the basic mechanics of the game. You can even integrate it into one or two fights instead of having a bunch of random fights that teach one thing.

[Leifei]

I just recently came back to FFXIV after almost 4 years. I was completely lost for a day or two but eventually found my groove again. And I was a little hesitant to queue for dungeons because I play Tank and I don't want to let the Party down by screwing up and causing us to fail. It's just a game but I take my party responsibilities very serious so that everyone can have the most fun possible.
My good friend LOVED this game and everything he owned was FF themed. His phone, his car, his room...he loved this game. He passed a few years ago which is one of the reasons I stopped playing. But his love of this game is also why I decided to start playing again. I miss him and I'm hoping he would approve of me getting back into FFXIV and having fun. (there is a reason I'm bringing him up)
During one of my first dungeons he was giving me advice and telling me what it was I doing wrong, and how best to change my tactics to suit playing a Tank and keep the party alive. After wards I apologized for being so inept, but he laughed and said not to worry about it because at least I listened to advice and learned from my failures. Then he mentioned that part of the problem with partying up with randoms is that you'll find people that are leveling their alternate characters and don't really care about the class and so they haven't learned how to utilize it to their advantage. And he also admitted that it's difficult to "help" other players because giving advice can be interpreted as being condescending. Which of course people get stubborn about and don't listen and then nothing changes and they continue to play poorly.
To summarize I think it could be a little of both. People not understanding their job, and people not caring about it. Luckily there are some really helpful people in FFXIV and they want others to do well and have fun. So don't get too disheartened. I promise some of us will listen and learn so that we can contribute to having a blast.

Bless you good sir.

[CelestiCer]

-Main one of the post, do you think is a people problem for not caring enough or from the game for not being more exigent on content?
-As a bonus and again maybe will be more of a TFDF thing, tell me if you've encountered a similar experience

Square encouraged players to be careless and lazy.
Regardless of the content, you'll often meet long time players (not new) who have not learned any fundamentals. The spread-marker-sprout meme? is just the tip of the iceberg. Square failed to create urgency for players to learn the basics cause that's not required for most content. The bar is set at " faceroll keyboard and try not to die ".

XIV suffers from Encouraged Casualism
Square having created an MMO environment where everything comes by easy, conditioning players to not be resilient. This results in players being allergic to any amount of difficulty or hardship... Which is ironic considering the Endwalker story mentioning something about overcoming adversity. Players rather have the already easy cakewalk made even easier since there's zero incentive to truly master anything. And it's largely Square's fault for creating this environment.

The worst example for me was helping a P5S party
Party ignored using mitigation skills. No Addle/Feint/Reprisal. With the party having low ilvl? The first raidwide killed the party and they started blaming the random SGE. And the SGE (bless his heart) has no idea that mitigation skills are a thing, made him say sorry for something that's not truly entirely his fault.

Most of FFXIV content is so casual? that Reading Tooltips? sets the difficulty to high! Although ironic? cause if players can get through MSQ? then surely they can read a few tooltips you'd think... Then again? most of it is not my clear. I'll just continue to help parties. But, what you get to see borders both depressive to see and simultaneously towards comedic skits for youtube shorts.

What I want is Tanks to just start using their Tankstances more. From Troia, to Euphrosyne adds, Endsinger 2nd tankbuster, P7S second auto attacks... like will you manage your enmity so I don't tank it as a Samurai it's all I ask... that's all I wish for please... well that and Kaiten returning... please mhm.

[Celine_Aurora]

snip

Mate I don't know if the best way to explain a mechanic is "watch the flyby text with a cronometer and figure it out I guess"

As for GCD and oGCD, I challenge you to find any player who, without ever lookingat an outside resource, figures out which casts or skills leave space for weaving or doubleweaving and manages to never incorrectly clip their GCDs.

Knowing what Crit and DH do and how they scale is necessary thanks to tiering, and to figure out for yourself, something you seem to be a fan of, stats weighing. It's an optimization to be sure, but more information that a palyer could choose to ignore is better than zero information a player needs to retrieve from an external party that ran combat log analysis on a targert dummy for hours to figure out. Your advice about jsut assumingthings also would lead to people just assuming each point of determination increases damage by little, and putting literally useless points in it because each tier is so far apart.

Anyways.

Our point is not that it's impossible to figure out these things, you can... if you want. The point of this thread is that you'd never need to, because if you are happy being a gigacasual that does the MSQ and then roulettes for 8 months, there is no failure state for severely underplaying your class. No songs BRD, healer partner no tech step DNC, and freecure fishers all get carried easily through any trial and dungeon in the MSQ. It's 100% on the game for never giving them the stimulus to at least read their damn tooltips - by forcing failure upon them.

[VeyaAkemi]

Since we commented on DNC, it also doesn't help that some common misinformation exists, and one that frustrates me to no end as a DNC main is "Dance Partner doesn't stack", because that's misleading, said at face value, it implies that DNC shouldn't partner each other, because they would override each other's buffs, in reality, Standard Step will apply two distinct but mechanically *and* visually identical buffs, one "in" buff on yourself and an "out" buff on your Dance Partner, an "out" buff and an "in" buff stack just fine, but two "out" buffs will override each other.

In practical terms, it look like this:

4-man dungeon, two DNC, each DNC applies Closed Position to the other, upon executing Standard Step, each DNC will receive a Standard Step buff, keeping two identical buffs on their buff bars, totalling for 10%(!!!) damage boost for each DNC.

4-man dungeon, two DNC, for some Azeyma-forsaken reason, both DNC apply Closed Position to the Tank, upon executing Standard Step, the Tank will only be able to keep one buff, with the most recent buff always overriding the existing buff, each DNC plus the Tank will only receive 5% damage boost from this.

And this is all insanely unintuitive, I can hear the trumpets of angels signifying a new miracle any time I don't have to explain this in a dungeon, because the myth of "DNC should never partner each other" gets perpetuated a lot, which means that even if somebody did their due diligence and looked around for information, they might still have this wrong! Its even hard to explain, and half the time I get the point across faster by just using Standard Step and telling them to look at their buff bar to see two buffs, and that's if they listen at all...

[MonsutaMan]

"Do people not care enough or does the game do a bad job at teaching?"

Neither, job design is terrible....& that translates to the people who are playing them.