Do people not care enough or does the game do a bad job at teaching?

[Kacho_Nacho]

You can see how often DoTs tick if you watch the flytext damage happening on the target, or apply a heal regen to yourself. For weaving, oGCDs are distinguished by the word "Ability" and GCDs by "Spell" or "Weaponskill" and don't show as being unusable after pressing a GCD. Knowing what Crit and DH do in detail isn't particularly necessary because you can just stack it based on the description alone and assume it increases damage.

They could have some sort of advanced tutorial to explain the rotation and all of these concepts, but it's not like it's impossible to figure out on your own and it's especially not if this isn't your first MMORPG.

This is the truth and I am content with it. Would it even be any fun if people weren't dying in dungeons so that I have to rescue them and work around them? Then I would never have to interrupt my broil for so much as a Rescue or have to figure out how to Broil while saving people.

/chuckle

C'mon, admit it. You like it when things go off the rails. It gives you something to do.

Smooth runs are boring! Give me an Alliance run where everyone in my group, but me and the tank, dies to an avoidable cleave, and I'm playing as a red mage instead of a healer.

That's where the real fun is! As Richard says, "Challenge accepted."

LFG Slaughter Your World

[Celine_Aurora]

snip

Mate I don't know if the best way to explain a mechanic is "watch the flyby text with a cronometer and figure it out I guess"

As for GCD and oGCD, I challenge you to find any player who, without ever lookingat an outside resource, figures out which casts or skills leave space for weaving or doubleweaving and manages to never incorrectly clip their GCDs.

Knowing what Crit and DH do and how they scale is necessary thanks to tiering, and to figure out for yourself, something you seem to be a fan of, stats weighing. It's an optimization to be sure, but more information that a palyer could choose to ignore is better than zero information a player needs to retrieve from an external party that ran combat log analysis on a targert dummy for hours to figure out. Your advice about jsut assumingthings also would lead to people just assuming each point of determination increases damage by little, and putting literally useless points in it because each tier is so far apart.

Anyways.

Our point is not that it's impossible to figure out these things, you can... if you want. The point of this thread is that you'd never need to, because if you are happy being a gigacasual that does the MSQ and then roulettes for 8 months, there is no failure state for severely underplaying your class. No songs BRD, healer partner no tech step DNC, and freecure fishers all get carried easily through any trial and dungeon in the MSQ. It's 100% on the game for never giving them the stimulus to at least read their damn tooltips - by forcing failure upon them.

[VeyaAkemi]

Since we commented on DNC, it also doesn't help that some common misinformation exists, and one that frustrates me to no end as a DNC main is "Dance Partner doesn't stack", because that's misleading, said at face value, it implies that DNC shouldn't partner each other, because they would override each other's buffs, in reality, Standard Step will apply two distinct but mechanically *and* visually identical buffs, one "in" buff on yourself and an "out" buff on your Dance Partner, an "out" buff and an "in" buff stack just fine, but two "out" buffs will override each other.

In practical terms, it look like this:

4-man dungeon, two DNC, each DNC applies Closed Position to the other, upon executing Standard Step, each DNC will receive a Standard Step buff, keeping two identical buffs on their buff bars, totalling for 10%(!!!) damage boost for each DNC.

4-man dungeon, two DNC, for some Azeyma-forsaken reason, both DNC apply Closed Position to the Tank, upon executing Standard Step, the Tank will only be able to keep one buff, with the most recent buff always overriding the existing buff, each DNC plus the Tank will only receive 5% damage boost from this.

And this is all insanely unintuitive, I can hear the trumpets of angels signifying a new miracle any time I don't have to explain this in a dungeon, because the myth of "DNC should never partner each other" gets perpetuated a lot, which means that even if somebody did their due diligence and looked around for information, they might still have this wrong! Its even hard to explain, and half the time I get the point across faster by just using Standard Step and telling them to look at their buff bar to see two buffs, and that's if they listen at all...

[Gemina]

Our point is not that it's impossible to figure out these things, you can... if you want. The point of this thread is that you'd never need to, because if you are happy being a gigacasual that does the MSQ and then roulettes for 8 months, there is no failure state for severely underplaying your class. No songs BRD, healer partner no tech step DNC, and freecure fishers all get carried easily through any trial and dungeon in the MSQ. It's 100% on the game for never giving them the stimulus to at least read their damn tooltips - by forcing failure upon them.

The failure is forced on them when and if they attempt harder content. A gigacasual hops into EX and all of a sudden finds themselves on a completely different playground, and this still isn't anywhere close to the game's most difficult content. When you boil down posts such as yours, it is very easy to discern that you want more difficult content to be forced onto the casuals. What happens then is you will really have a problem on your hands because the content you can now sleep through can't be cleared.

Players who want to learn will do so on their own accord. And the players that want to learn typically want to attempt more difficult content. Even for something like EX, the concepts behind things like Crit/DH and optimization of skills still aren't that important because in order to clear content at this level, what is more important is group coordination and understanding mechanics along with not failing them. Players who want to go above and beyond will make the effort to understand PvE inside and out.

For the casuals, the game only needs the players to understand how the game is played. Things like MSQ progression, job roles, light parties require 4 players comprised of tank, healer, and 2 DPS. Full parties are double of each; some duties require a min ilevel, hotbar/crossbar/hotkey allocation, abilities/spells/weapon skills, etc. There are tooltips for nearly everything, and the menu also has a help log. Whether or not a casual players actually looks at it is irrelevant. These tools are still available to them nonetheless. Content lower than EX and the very occasional NM duty where the devs will ramp up the difficulty a bit shouldn't matter much to you. If you want more challenging content where players are required to know more and try harder, I suggest sticking to more difficult duties.

[Absurdity]

You can see how often DoTs tick if you watch the flytext damage happening on the target, or apply a heal regen to yourself. For weaving, oGCDs are distinguished by the word "Ability" and GCDs by "Spell" or "Weaponskill" and don't show as being unusable after pressing a GCD. Knowing what Crit and DH do in detail isn't particularly necessary because you can just stack it based on the description alone and assume it increases damage.

None of that solves the issue of the game trying it's best to obfuscate information.

How much % crit is 2250? What is my critical damage modifier?
How much % damage does Determination give me? How much does Tenacity give me and how much mitigation?
How much extra damage does Direct Hit actually give me and what is the % proc chance on it?

The game wants you to decide what to prioritize between all these different stats but can't even be bothered to give you concrete information on what they do, opting instead to use vague descriptions that tell you absolutely nothing.


You say it doesn't matter because they all increase your damage somehow, but those stats aren't all equal and that should be made clear to the player.
Whether they can be bothered to use that information is up to the individual, but the game should absolutely give you enough concrete information to make an educated decision yourself, without having to look it up on third party sites.

[Avoidy]

The former. 95% of the game's content doesn't give you a reason to give a shit. Even in the more challenging moments, you can just get carried by 1 person in your team who knows what they're doing. So yeah, people don't care because they don't have to care. Saying the game does a bad job of teaching, when all they've done is streamline combat to make it easier for people (who never gave a shit anyway) to grasp, is sort of... like.. what more do you want them to do, realistically? Maybe expand the hall of the novice or make it mandatory before entering your first dungeon? Okay. After that, idk. Outside of a few esoteric DPS jobs, most just follow a 123 setup, maybe have a gauge build/spend minigame, and a 2 minute buff with some ogcds you press when they're off cd. Maybe the game could have a mandatory training room going into these basics? I guess that could help newbies.

I do think that for DPS especially, there's really no way for you to know that you're bad unless someone has the balls to tell you. At least on a healer or a tank, if you suck people will die and you'll probably have a hard time clearing, but it's real easy to coast for a long time as a bad dps; you could literally do it wrong all the way to level 90 and just have no idea how hard you're jobbing. In Vindictus, at the end of every round, they'd tell you how much damage the top dps contributed and how much you contributed. This was shared as percentages iirc. You didn't even see everyone's numbers. Just, "here's what the best guy in your group did, and here's you." And from that alone, you can kind of gauge like... am I even with my team? Am I being carried? Is there something else I should be paying attention to? But in XIV, there's legit nada and if that falls into the category of the game being a poor teacher, then yeah the game's a fucking terrible teacher.

[Kacho_Nacho]

(Cross posting this from Reddit)
This will prolly look more like a TFDF post rather than a debate one but will try my best to lead it the other way


For the past few months since i became a mentor i've been doing said roulette, with the number being at 850 at the moment, and with it i've seen pretty much all cases, with the last one happening a moment ago being the one who made me wonder.

This was a SAM, tower of Zot, multiple jobs at 90 already who basically didn't knew anything about their Iajutsu, noticed when pulls were taking longer than normal and only saw 1 of the buffs on their chars and never a Tenka Goken(SAM AOE Iajutsu) and later on a midare

Then i proceed to take like 5 minutes explaining everything to said person, lucky enough the other 2 on the party didn't bother

My first train of thought was, of course, "C'mon man people don't bother to even look a guide", along the multiple Cure 1 healers and other things that should be considered basics at higher dungeon levels

But then after said dungeon i thought as well and as dumb as it sounds, does the SAM quest ever requires you to do said skill even once?

We're talking about in order to clear the whole thing a person could just smash 2 keyslike this one was doing and still make it through

Main questions i want to ask and kinda of a TLDR

-Main one of the post, do you think is a people problem for not caring enough or from the game for not being more exigent on content?

-As a bonus and again maybe will be more of a TFDF thing, tell me if you've encountered a similar experience

I feel the real issue is some people play FFXIV as a game while other take it more seriously. The players who take FFXIV more seriously are annoyed by the lack of effort by the very casual.

Here's the thing, you are never going to change the super casual. They view the MMO in a totally different light than you. By you, I mean the players who want to play their jobs well.

The super casual see FFXIV in the same light as an arcade game. They just go through the game, looking at the content, and pressing buttons. That's how they enjoy the MMO. They don't want to do better because they focus their energies elsewhere.

It's not a "problem." It's just the way things are and it's been going on since the very first games were created. For every chess player attempting to be a grandmaster, there are a hundred who just play chess as a game.

[Bsrking5]

I mean okay, sure, but also that's not even relevant information for playing proficiently through the MSQ duties. The game gives you everything you need to succeed at the basic MSQ.

This is to say that the bar is incredibly low, and that the casuals of this game don't care enough to even reach the lowest necessary standards.

It's so low as a dps you can afk easily and pass by the effort of other players.

[Deceptus]

Both. Hall of the novice was a decent idea but it really needed expanded upon (Hall of the Intermediate, Hall of the expert) to show the finer points of your role (GDC optimization, movement, etc etc)

But since the game never teaches players that we have people who don't understand that AoE is a thing or that they need to actually upgrade their gear in 10 levels.

[Amenara]

The game does a bad job with tutorials using an antiquated text box instead of having you interact with the game or actually showing you things in the game, hall of the novice is woefully out of date and nothing forces you to do it, there is no reason to get better at the game as pretty much everything outside of 8 person content is soloable and not difficult, and SE shows no will or inclination to making the game better for lower level players or helping them learn the absolute basics of the game.

I want them to turn the tutorials into an interactive thing where it has you actually click through the menus in the game to show you where things are instead of having an easily ignored or even not noticed pop up wall of text. I want them to have a tutorial scripted fight towards the beginning that shows you how combos work, how to read tooltips, GCDs vs oGCDs, etc during a real combat situation. Lastly I think it's been said multiple times but I want the game to have a more in depth, up to date hall of the novice for new players to have to go through before Satasha so they can learn more of the basic mechanics of the game. You can even integrate it into one or two fights instead of having a bunch of random fights that teach one thing.