Do people not care enough or does the game do a bad job at teaching?

[Iscah]

SGE [has the tutorial battle] on the second quest, you can pick up SGE and walk away from her, and not be negatively impacted by that in any way until you are level 80 at which point you would need to complete the questline for Panhaima.

I think that's just the nature of the quest structure – the only way to give you the gear and soul crystal is through a quest reward, so that happens, and then the following quest is job-restricted to ensure you've equipped the things before continuing. Most (all?) expansion jobs follow this structure of putting a tutorial battle in the second quest, even back in Heavensward.

Perhaps if the second quest wasn't job-restricted, you could go into the solo instance as any job. (Hmm, I wonder if ARR lets you into MSQ solo instances on non-battle jobs...?)

[VeyaAkemi]

I think that's just the nature of the quest structure – the only way to give you the gear and soul crystal is through a quest reward, so that happens, and then the following quest is job-restricted to ensure you've equipped the things before continuing. Most (all?) expansion jobs follow this structure of putting a tutorial battle in the second quest, even back in Heavensward.

Perhaps if the second quest wasn't job-restricted, you could go into the solo instance as any job. (Hmm, I wonder if ARR lets you into MSQ solo instances on non-battle jobs...?)

Yeah, I understand part of it is that the game is limited to needing you to have the job unlocked to enter the tutorial, perhaps they could load you into a NPC kit with limited moveset for the tutorial, like, say, Dosis, Diagnosis, Prognosis, Eukrasia, Druochole, Ixochole, Kerachole, Physis II and Kardia, it'd fit a single hotbar, give you enough of an understanding of SGE basics, and give you some oGCD to work with, and narratively you could prove yourself a Sage to Lalah before she hands you the Soul Crystal rather than you being the rock's chosen one, but that would also have issues of awkward hotbar set up, so it wouldn't be ideal either, but it is the best I can suggest.

[hunkygladiator]

I think if you want to cater to the audience as large as FFXIV ...

You know, I appreciate you. Even if every post you write is an entire essay. You're so wholesome. No sarcasm.

[Ranaku]

My perfect solution for that problem:

- Remove the mentor system so we don't have to deal with whining mentors anymore who can't read their job description.

- SE should give players a preset hotbar and shouldn't just slap new actions all over the 1-9 keys. Don't know why this is even a thing, you pick up a lvl 70 job and your whole hotbar looks like the aftermath of a college student party by default. That is just toxic game design and lazy and totally SE fault. Just give people a premade setup for their hotbar, the most common one and if they then want to change it cause they understand what the stuff does and how the rotation works then just let them change it.

- Make story fights hard again, like in ARR and HW when you were bad at your job you wouldn't get past the instanced fights. That way people would be maybe actually forced or motivated to learn how to play properly.

[RitsukoSonoda]

(Cross posting this from Reddit)
This will prolly look more like a TFDF post rather than a debate one but will try my best to lead it the other way


For the past few months since i became a mentor i've been doing said roulette, with the number being at 850 at the moment, and with it i've seen pretty much all cases, with the last one happening a moment ago being the one who made me wonder.

This was a SAM, tower of Zot, multiple jobs at 90 already who basically didn't knew anything about their Iajutsu, noticed when pulls were taking longer than normal and only saw 1 of the buffs on their chars and never a Tenka Goken(SAM AOE Iajutsu) and later on a midare

Then i proceed to take like 5 minutes explaining everything to said person, lucky enough the other 2 on the party didn't bother

My first train of thought was, of course, "C'mon man people don't bother to even look a guide", along the multiple Cure 1 healers and other things that should be considered basics at higher dungeon levels

But then after said dungeon i thought as well and as dumb as it sounds, does the SAM quest ever requires you to do said skill even once?

We're talking about in order to clear the whole thing a person could just smash 2 keyslike this one was doing and still make it through

Main questions i want to ask and kinda of a TLDR

-Main one of the post, do you think is a people problem for not caring enough or from the game for not being more exigent on content?

-As a bonus and again maybe will be more of a TFDF thing, tell me if you've encountered a similar experience

The issue IMO is that you can progress the MSQ without actually learning how to play the game. You just get other ppl to carry you through 4 player duties and basic mode 8 player trials then fail the solo instances immediately so you can set it on 1 button mode.

[Gemina]

(Cross posting this from Reddit)
This will prolly look more like a TFDF post rather than a debate one but will try my best to lead it the other way


For the past few months since i became a mentor i've been doing said roulette, with the number being at 850 at the moment, and with it i've seen pretty much all cases, with the last one happening a moment ago being the one who made me wonder.

This was a SAM, tower of Zot, multiple jobs at 90 already who basically didn't knew anything about their Iajutsu, noticed when pulls were taking longer than normal and only saw 1 of the buffs on their chars and never a Tenka Goken(SAM AOE Iajutsu) and later on a midare

Then i proceed to take like 5 minutes explaining everything to said person, lucky enough the other 2 on the party didn't bother

My first train of thought was, of course, "C'mon man people don't bother to even look a guide", along the multiple Cure 1 healers and other things that should be considered basics at higher dungeon levels

But then after said dungeon i thought as well and as dumb as it sounds, does the SAM quest ever requires you to do said skill even once?

We're talking about in order to clear the whole thing a person could just smash 2 keyslike this one was doing and still make it through

Main questions i want to ask and kinda of a TLDR

-Main one of the post, do you think is a people problem for not caring enough or from the game for not being more exigent on content?

-As a bonus and again maybe will be more of a TFDF thing, tell me if you've encountered a similar experience

I seem to remember the SAM lv60 quest being one of the most difficult for me to clear. Mitigating, self-sustain, and high damage all play a role in facilitating the fight against Musosai Sensei. While I do agree the game does not do the best job of teaching players how to optimize their skills, I think SAM isn't the best example of that. Skip potions would be the more likely culprit for high level SAMs whose blades are duller than a sugar spoon.

Also, having multiple or all jobs as max level is not indicative of skill. It's very easy to max out a job without even stepping into content that pushes the limits of its skillset.

[DixieBellOCE]

(Cross posting this from Reddit)
This will prolly look more like a TFDF post rather than a debate one but will try my best to lead it the other way


For the past few months since i became a mentor i've been doing said roulette, with the number being at 850 at the moment, and with it i've seen pretty much all cases, with the last one happening a moment ago being the one who made me wonder.

This was a SAM, tower of Zot, multiple jobs at 90 already who basically didn't knew anything about their Iajutsu, noticed when pulls were taking longer than normal and only saw 1 of the buffs on their chars and never a Tenka Goken(SAM AOE Iajutsu) and later on a midare

Then i proceed to take like 5 minutes explaining everything to said person, lucky enough the other 2 on the party didn't bother

My first train of thought was, of course, "C'mon man people don't bother to even look a guide", along the multiple Cure 1 healers and other things that should be considered basics at higher dungeon levels

But then after said dungeon i thought as well and as dumb as it sounds, does the SAM quest ever requires you to do said skill even once?

We're talking about in order to clear the whole thing a person could just smash 2 keyslike this one was doing and still make it through

Main questions i want to ask and kinda of a TLDR

-Main one of the post, do you think is a people problem for not caring enough or from the game for not being more exigent on content?

-As a bonus and again maybe will be more of a TFDF thing, tell me if you've encountered a similar experience

The game doesn't not do enough to challenge said players to make them learn to play properly.

It holds their hands every step of the way as if they cant function under normal circumstances, this is the end result of setting the level of difficulty at the lowest common denominator. People even struggle with the MSQ now, and if they cant beat it at current difficulty, then there is no helping them get better, they choose to not learn to play.

[AwesomeJr44]

Everything in normal content is designed to have a near 100% clear rate with any group, rather than having players actually put effort into succeeding. That SAM can get carried through nearly all normal content simply because it's designed that way. FFXIV is designed to allow you to be the dumbest most brainless moron on the planet and still clear everything that is normal content. Unless the majority of the team is that bad, the other teammates will be able to carry that dead weight. It'll be unfun for them, but they can do it, so the dead weight player is never forced to actually carry their own weight. It's not a very good design choice tbh.

[Ghost_of_Ebina]

If this happened in normal content it is not a surprise.
For Square-Enix, it doesn't make sense to design their content to require too much "gamer" style skill / thought -- they want to capture casual players.
Plenty of people quit playing when the game requires too much from them (and there are valid reason sometimes).
They have jump potions as part of their online shop, which means SE is happy to have players who don't understand how their job works.

As for how others should pull the same weight, I suppose that's part of playing an MMO with random strangers -- you never know what you'll get and it can help to have some sense of humor to enjoy crazy situations. I doubt no system can be set up to compensate for the chaos that random assignment of strangers can bring.

With that said, the point that the mentor system needs to be adjusted seems to make sense to me.
How should the mentor system be changed?

[ICountFrom0]

Notice that folks get stuck at the solo duties that have DPS checks until they are able to get massively overpowered equipment and then glide through. Using overpowered equipment to make up for a lack of skill seems to be standard.

My personal dream project would be a re-release of Final Fantasy Mystic Quest as some kind of mostly self playing easy mode cell phone game with epic music, then we get a crossover event where it becomes the tutorial zones for the game.

Maybe we go one step further and the use of a skip book puts you in there with mandatory clear before exit.

Smithy's lessons clearly have mistakes right now. You'd need to have those fixed too.

I want to assume that it's not the people, that if we make sure the resources exist in game that people will be able to find them and use them.

.... then I remember how many questions in novice network are answered by the active help that they just closed....