Because why not: A Moderate Proposal - SCH

[Renathras]

One caveat I've been thinking about the Broil/Bane...it MIGHT be better to put that on Art of War. Boring, but the reason is I'm thinking there MIGHT be some cases where you don't want to spread DoTs (e.g. some add pops up that you DON'T wan to damage; it's rare, but like the bird with the eggs boss in Pharos where attacking the eggs builds enrage stacks on the boss), whereas any time you're using Art of War, you're intentionally AOEing. While more...frankly boring...it might be the better solution given that. Otherwise, if you had a boss fight with adds, the SCH would be left spamming Miasma. And while not the WORST thing ever, it wouldn't be ideal.

...

When I did the math, this proposal would have us going from 22 to 18 Broil IV casts per minute (that's assuming we AREN'T using Miasma for extra movement/weaves), which isn't too far off from SB (a bit more Broil, but compared to 14, 18 isn't too bad when the alternative has been 22). Looking at the top team's 99 SCH from P5S (I like using P5S since I think it's an example of the "hard content, but still effectively all worked out and on farm" making a good "worse case scenario" to compare against), he/she used 146 Broil IVs over a just over 6:30 fight, so, 146 / 6.5 = 22.46..., so the 22 Broil IVs per minute seems to hold up well. 18 x 6.5 comes out to 117, which is still a lot, but now instead of just 13 Biolyses, we have another 26 Miasmas. And this is the "worst case" scenario, meaning in fights we actually would do things like some Spreadlos or the like (this person in this fight didn't use a GCD heal as far as I can tell; there's some Galvanize listed, but I THINK that may be from Seraph for whatever reason...? That or they used an Adlo during the Ultimate that did no healing and ONLY the shields spread by Deploy counted, perhaps...) But in any case, 117 is a reduction of 19.86%, so basically ~1/5th or ~20%, and with more Energy Drains up more often to weave hopefully making the flow more interesting.

I don't think anything Healers do short of Misery will ever have the impact of Fire 4 or Despair, much less Xenoglossy. It's kind of a role thing, though WHM does have Misery and Tanks have gotten into the action with stuff like Swords and Double Down.

The thing is, I'm not sure it IS a good thing for Healers - or at least all Healers - to do. Yes yes, I know, broken record, but hear me out on this one:

What just happened in 6.3?

The PLD rework. The PLD rework made a Job that was unique in its Role into...being less unique. The response has been somewhere between mixed milquetoast and tepid, but the one thing everyone agreed on was that it IS further homogenization of the Tanks and the game losing just that extra little bit of uniqueness in a Job that was, before, more unique. It went from being a sustain damage profile into a builder/spender 1 min CD burst damage profile. It's a thing BLM players are terrified will happen to BLM, as it's the only DPS Job/last man standing that still has a kind of sustained damage profile. Technically, it has a builder/spender and a lot of "micro-bursts" (with the uniqueness of the Job being that OF ALL THE JOBS IN THE GAME, BLM has the most agency in choosing when it wants to enter/end these mini phases while everyone else is chained to the 1 min/2 min cycles of their Job), but the point is, that uniqueness is good, and if Healers get shunted more into the WHM Misery system, it will mean more the burst/2 min meta game that, I think[?], we all agree we want to get away from.

THAT SAID: Having a Healer Job or two that work that way isn't bad - Roe's idea of the elementalist WHM with the 1 min burst profile could fit that, for example, as could various SGE ideas - but one thing I think SCH does well is that it DOESN'T (really) have a burst, it has a nice smoothed sustained damage profile, and would even moreso with this proposed rework adding Miasma's DoT to the mix (it might require Broil damage to be reduced or something to not be overtuned, but that just furthers the idea of a sustained damage profile), even as it still fits into the 2 min meta system with Chain Strat guaranteeing it won't be sidelined for a 1 min burst WHM/SGE, necessarily. I think that's a dichotomy that's good for the game, not bad for it.

Ask any GNB who has a burst phase where Double Down doesn't crit or direct hit how that feels.

So I think this is a place where it's fine to have some of that, but perhaps we can agree that a Healer Job or two NOT doing that (probably SCH and AST since they have their party buffs instead), like pre-6.3 PLD or present BLM, is preferable to having all Healers have their own versions of Xenoglossy. Just like all Casters being SMN would be bad, all Healers being whatever the Healer version of BLM is might be bad as well.

And as you guys have said before - and I somewhat agree - if we make a Healer somewhat like BLM, WHM would be the ideal candidate to have a Mhach/Amdapor, Black/White Magic dichotomy going.

...though I'll also note probably AT LEAST a little of that is on the VFX. The Stone spells feel increasingly impactful from Stone 1 to Stone 2 to Stone 3. IMO Stone 3 is the best at this, and it vaguely reminds me of the Earthquake Element (spell) from Chrono Cross, the one with the three giant pillars of stone rising out of the ground and then slamming down on the enemy party. Stone 4 somehow doesn't have quite that feel to me, somehow, it just doesn't feel as meaty, and then Glare doesn't at all, and Glare III is like two sets of the little Glare thingies. While that's not necessarily BAD - Bahamut's cataclysm tendril things also don't look that devastating until they hit the countryside with a cascade of massive explosions... - Stone 3 definitely FEELS impactful, even if it mechanically/by the numbers isn't.

Never underestimate how some good VFX can help. I know a lot of people don't like Broil IV, but at least it feels a little juicier and the projectiles look like they could do some more damage, and it's largely an improvement over Broil III (which was more like Glare) or Broil II (which was like Broil IV, just the projectiles were smaller). I've said many times that Broil IV reminds me of the plasma turrets from Halo, and those things are nasty, so I'm good with that.

Though, I should note:

BLM's "filler" spells, if I had to pick them, would be Fire 1 and Blizzard 3, I think. Fire 1 is a pretty bog standard spell, on par with 1/4th of Broil II or with Ruin 1/2 just yellow-orange instead of black. Indeed, Blizzard 3 looks much more impactful than Fire 1. Fire 1 is the spell you use to sustain/maintain Astral Fire if you don't get a Fire 3 proc, and Blizzard 3 gets you into Umbral Ice for free as well as sustaining you in it. So I'd think those are the filler spells. You ideally don't want to USE Fire 1, but it's the closest thing to a filler spell when in Astral Fire. I'm...not sure why Blizzard 1 exists after level 35...

Eh I dunno. I'd say making Glarebroil spectacularly visually snappy spells would quickly feel old and kill any sense of spectacle after the 10th cast in a row. Much like SMN's design no amount of spectacle will save a mechanical gameplay that is repetitive.

Having highs and lows is what makes things special. That's why "builder>spender" classes are an easy way to create gameplay flow because doing things right to get that "I now finally blast everything" feels satisfying.

Of course, you have to match that visually spectacular thing with a significant gameplay impact or else you'll make the player feel like crap.

I think this isn't universal. While having some big hits can feel nice, people often DO like sustained damage Jobs. Old PLD did have its burst phase, but it wasn't over the top (before 6.0's Unlimited Swordworks, anyway). It felt consistent, steady, sturdy, and reliable; it wasn't your friend's brand new hotrod that cost more than your house, but it gets you to work and back safely, occasionally to and from your family vacation, and is relaxing to drive on weekends.

Again as I say above, it's nice to have Job diversity, and I think that's important here as well. Notwithstanding THAT:

You feel like you're working toward more sit-'n-spin instead of something that actually feels good to do.

This is why I think the Energy Drain change here is so important. While it isn't exploding Flares left and right, it can feel good to bump out some extra damage, and being rewarded by good play with more EDs you can powerweave might scratch that itch, even if it's in a sustained damage profile Job rather than a burst one. Granted, you can also pool Faerie Gauge to machine gun the things during burst windows with Chain Strat, and that might feel decent, too.

Maybe even some trait where ED does +100% damage (2x) to targets inflicted by Chain Strat could be fun (just a spur of the moment suggestion, don't take it seriously...although.......that does sound kind of fun, even if it's basically just machine gunning Miasmas, lol)

Oh, as an aside on VFX:

Would be cool if the Energy Drains came from Eos/Selene, like they were casting Ruin 2s or something. Just a nice little touch...mainly because I miss SMN Carbie attacking enemies.

.

I absolutely think there's a place for a Healer to have that "build up, spend on big hit" playstyle, though. SGE and then WHM are the two candidates I'd probably suggest for build suggestions to do that. I think Roe's for WHM kind of did that with the Elemental burst thing it had going for it with Flood/Quake/Tornado, and SGE's Pneuma has no right to hit like a wet noodle with a VFX that awesome and a CD that long...that should definitely be a big hit you just plaster enemies with.

Royal Road Balance+Spread used to be that high after the build up. Where you'd unleash a mega buff and all your party members would see their numbers skyrocket. That felt impactful (Maybe too much so) but was visually kind of underwhelming.

I've always felt this on SCH using Deploy Critlos. Something about the visual effect of the Adlo shield, and the visual and sound que of Deploy, AND how it's immediately visible looking at the party health bars and seeing those nice yellow shield bars, and then the big enemy it comes in and...does no damage to the party.

Feelsgood, man, feelsgood.

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Anyway: TL;DR:

It's probably good to have some Healer Jobs that work more like BLM, but I think it's also fine for SCH to be more like pre-EW PLD with an "Ol' Reliable" sustained damage profile instead using Chain to slot into the party's burst (being a synergist) rather than its own big hit spells, per se (again, the Energy Drain x2 under Chain could help when soloing to get a little of that feel...)

Embrace (no pun intended... XD) the diversity.

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EDIT2:

What about 'Energy Drain is guaranteed to crit if the enemy is afflicted with Chain Stratagem'? That way, it's not only doing 1.45 to 1.75 (depending on crit rate) times damage because it's going to crit, but is also boosted by 15% more damage (multiplicatively) because of Chain's crit rate increase overflowing past the 100% and being converted to flat damage % increase. It's not quite double damage but it still incentivizes 'use in raidbuffs'

I like that idea. Elegant solution.

[ForsakenRoe]

What about 'Energy Drain is guaranteed to crit if the enemy is afflicted with Chain Stratagem'? That way, it's not only doing 1.45 to 1.75 (depending on crit rate) times damage because it's going to crit, but is also boosted by 15% more damage (multiplicatively) because of Chain's crit rate increase overflowing past the 100% and being converted to flat damage % increase. It's not quite double damage but it still incentivizes 'use in raidbuffs'

edit sorry i was eating:

I don't think anything Healers do short of Misery will ever have the impact of Fire 4 or Despair, much less Xenoglossy. It's kind of a role thing, though WHM does have Misery and Tanks have gotten into the action with stuff like Swords and Double Down.
...
So I think this is a place where it's fine to have some of that, but perhaps we can agree that a Healer Job or two NOT doing that (probably SCH and AST since they have their party buffs instead), like pre-6.3 PLD or present BLM, is preferable to having all Healers have their own versions of Xenoglossy.

When we look at the potencies of the top three listed damage skills used on BLM (Fire4, Xeno, Despair), you have (after accounting for AF3's 80% buff) 558, 800, 612 respectively. If we divide those all by 2, we get 279, 400, 306. Which looks like a similar (and intentional) spread of damage to Glare's 310, Dia's 430, Banish's 350, this is what I was aiming to mirror. I don't necessarily want the healers to all have a Xeno in terms of it's gameplay functionality, but I want at least some of them to have 'the effect Xeno has on the Casts Per Minute chart spread of abilities used'. Something that is used at roughly 25% the rate of Glare, to go along with something that is roughly 20% of the rate of Glare. Heck, SGE already has a Xeno of sorts, it's called Phlegma. If we can get the casts of Spam, DOT, 3rd skill ratio to be something more like 5:3:2 (or 4:3:3 if they're feeling spicy), that'd be a vast improvement I think

I don't think we can ever make the glowy lights have impact as it stands, from a VFX standpoint, they've painted themselves into a corner, hence why I went for the moment of power with the heal tool. Unless they add Purgation to PVE, I can't see any light-based skill having much 'wow' factor. Imagine an alternate universe where Water was the 'filler' skill, and it gets revealed in a Job Action trailer that WHMs could, every 25-30 seconds, drop a massive boulder on the enemy for big AOE damage. It'd have a lot more 'impact' than a new rank of Glare, right? I don't know if I can get excited for another reveal of 'the little light balls travel in a triangle formation instead of hexagon this time!' Broil's the worst for it, it's been almost identical 'several nondescript balls of energy' every time, they just change color slightly (and occasionally it's 5 instead of 4)

[Tigore]

I was just thinking of ideas that might work if a healer were to build up more mana than they do now. Lucid Dreaming and an additional method (Assize, Addergall, Card mana, Aetherflow) pretty much offers what is needed for all 4 healers to use their DPS rotation while using their efficient heal cooldowns. Extra mana regen after that would likely encourage a big mana spell finisher. With Roe's increased Energy Drain idea, it may be best to keep it to just self HP heals for this case.

[Renathras]

Anyway, it's just nice to see there are points of agreement and some potential kit ideas that can appeal broadly.

[Semirhage]

There's a little merit to the impact feel of VFX and sound design, it's true. There's an...*ahem*, thing that some people have done on Youtube that one might search up that use a clientside <REDACTED FOR TOS> to replace VFX. One of them swaps out Holy's animation and sound effects with Thanjeet's megaholy attack he uses in E11, or alternatively a blue-white space laser kaboom that include a little screen shake and (so I'm told) make it actually feel like you're blasting things so hard you're stunning them.

[ForsakenRoe]

Can they make one that replaces the big Phlegma ball with the Toxicon 1 animation because god damn the ball is ugly

One that I did see due to a certain streamer was a 'holy DRK', and that got me to thinking, wouldn't it be cool if there was an entire set of different animations that could be unlocked for each job? I remember seeing a 'blood mage' WHM too, that'd have been interesting to see. I also remember when the Nier raids came out at first, thinking 'hmm I wonder if SE has plans to mogstation sell 'animation swaps', like changing Third Eye on SAM to 'Android-Time dodge from Nier', or SCH shields to be like the hacking/shielding effects from Nier. I assume the reason they haven't yet is not because of 'the goodness of their hearts' but 'because they can't work out how to make the system work in a cost effective manner'

But yeh, consider it a potential new reward structure: unlockable animations. Or at least, let us swap back to older animations so we don't have to use the current stuff all the time. I can't be the only one who thinks Heavens' Thrust looks goofy as hell, surely. And it'd allow us to go back to using the elemental stuff for WHM if we so chose. And I'd be able to go back to using the Toxicon animation which was in the trailer and is objectively way better than Tox2 and I will not be taking any arguments on this

Oh, and to keep the post SCH related, it'd allow us to have a way to summon Feo Ul instead of the sudden random 'btw here's your angelic looking Seraph that looks more like it fits with WHM's kit, enjoy idiot'

[Tigore]

As a side note, I do remember the spell animations for Chrono Cross. It has very decent effects. Even the level 1 Shadow spell has you launch a big gravity ball to the enemy. The level 5 and 6 light spells Holy Light and Ultra Nova make it look like you are frying the enemies with intense and bright light. Serge does pretty well with frying enemies with his Luminaire (lvl 5) too. Although some class specific animations were hit or miss since you had something like 40 - 50 characters. Serge, Kid and Glenn were a few with the better looking ones and were some of the better choices anyhow. Serge's girlfriend Leena was alright too with her stats and being blue to use a strong blue only healing spell.

Also Chrono Trigger had some good spells of their own too. Favorites of mine are Chrono's Luminaire as well as the dual tech Antipode Bomb 3 from Marle and Lucca.

Holy Light - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KVvTXEDbic

Ultranova - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQdMHmGMDwE

Earthquake - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea1joYQCnrQ

Luminaire - Cross - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-GVHDch_QM
Trigger - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cN5h_UurfQ

Dual Tech with Marle, Lucca and Robo - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1VFDAbv_g3A

[Renathras]

...

I think Chrono Trigger is the game that got me forever hooked on the idea of magic runes being part of spellcasts. I think this is why I like Art of War and Broil III/IV since they have those spell circles as part of their animations. That Holy Light spell, to this day, with the runic seal on the ground, still looks great. And this PS1 - ONE - game is...gosh, it's gotta be like 20-25 years old by now! And Earthquake is just as meaty as I remember.

[Tigore]

When I look at the Antipode Bomb 2 spell, that one does look like Marle and Lucca are actually using Broil on the poor robot. In any case, the games are probably close to that old in 30 years by now. They tried hard to make these 2 games great. Chrono Cross' story is a little confusing, but that's because you only really see links when you start to get to the later areas. The games have some good melodies too.

Delightful Spekkio - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22a8X58BwyU
Tyrano Lair - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_W-ISaVxnM

Magical Dreamers ~The Wind, Stars, and Waves - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ8DPu3kzic
Radical Dreamers - Credits Theme - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3a_iTwQIi4

Trigger Victory Fanfare - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qls9xNJ_dyQ
Cross Victory Gift of Spring - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq1LxvyRb48
Cross Victory Summer's Cry - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-i-c_5OJuo

It makes me think if such a crossover would work. Our characters are already travelling between alternate dimensions kind of like Serge does in Chrono Cross. We also have a time travel moment to Elpis, but that isn't a very common occurrence yet like it was in Chrono Trigger.

[ICountFrom0]

While we're tinkering.

Does anybody else think that expediant feels more like a level 50 capstone ability and not a level 90 capstone ability?

It's a little speed and a little damage reduction. Other classes get quite a bit more at 90. It looks like it lines up better with level 50 abilities.