Does FFXIV's combat system need an overhaul?

[Oizen]

I think the 2-minute meta was meant to make raiding harder. SE could not scale DPS checks around aligned buffs because many raiders didn't care about it except statics and even some of those are probably too casual to care unless they are dying to enrage. Now that buff alignment is guaranteed in the class design, they can design the DPS checks around them and make the checks harder to meet even for the harder core raiders. As you explained, it seems to have succeeded in making it harder as well, considering even hardcore raiders were having trouble with P8S before the nerf.

SE wants the raids to be harder than they have been, but the rest of the game to be easier than it has been, from what I can see. Dungeons easier. Jobs easier. But they are redistributing that lost difficulty into the savage and ultimate raids where, some might argue, it belongs (I'm not going to say one way or the other, since I don't really care).

I wouldn't miss the 2-minute burst windows though, or burst windows in general. I loved PLD as it was without a single burst window. I loved how varied Dark Knight was with the abilities being on a variety of different cooldowns instead of now all being ready at 60 seconds.

I'm pretty sure the 2m meta was made solely so developing fights was made easier for the developers.

[R041]

I'm pretty sure the 2m meta was made solely so developing fights was made easier for the developers.

Dev: "Oh, looks like players are confused or having trouble with this thing.. What should we do?"
Yoshi: "Can't stop the MSQ train to fix every little thing, just remove it!"

Repeat 100x since HW

Literally every change they make, I put it through the lens of easy/lazy dev and it all starts to make sense.

[Jeeqbit]

I'm pretty sure the 2m meta was made solely so developing fights was made easier for the developers.

That was part of what I was saying. They can't decide on a DPS check if players are not all approaching the fight in the same way so making them all align makes it easier for them.

[Oizen]

That was part of what I was saying. They can't decide on a DPS check if players are not all approaching the fight in the same way so making them all align makes it easier for them.

I don't get the reason why this game has such a hard on for rigid damage checks, and I'm not saying this as some angry casual that can't meet them.

I'm of the opinion that the game shouldn't even have super rigid DPS checks if they're not going to implement systems to accurately teach people who to push their buttons correctly, and how to gauge their performance.

Seems like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too by having these hardcore raiding features but the rest of the game heavily favors casuals.

[Jeeqbit]

I don't get the reason why this game has such a hard on for rigid damage checks, and I'm not saying this as some angry casual that can't meet them.

Otherwise you could just play a macro every 15 GCDs to do a rotation for you. I've solo'd some of the Shadowbringers normal raids and been there over 20 minutes because of there not being an enrage. I solo'd one from Stormblood as a blue mage and discovered it actually had a 14 minute enrage. Should a boss really just repeat 2 mechanics after the first 10 minutes while you spend a further 20 minutes killing it because nobody can press their buttons well?

I'm of the opinion that the game shouldn't even have super rigid DPS checks if they're not going to implement systems to accurately teach people who to push their buttons correctly, and how to gauge their performance.

Tooltips, job guide, and Stone, Sky, Sea are how they do this and if someone actually uses them, they are enough. For example, I don't go to the balance every time a new expansion releases or every time I play a job with a new rotation. I just read the tooltips and job guide it's pretty obvious from there.

The Balance is useful to learn a tip or too for optimization (for example, delaying or dropping Atonements on paladin), but the core rotations are pretty obvious if you set it up and read it properly as you're doing it.

Seems like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too by having these hardcore raiding features but the rest of the game heavily favors casuals.

They have always designed content for both, with an extreme in every patch, savage every two patches, and various other types of content in between for both sides.

[Oizen]

So in order.

Should a boss really just repeat 2 mechanics after the first 10 minutes while you spend a further 20 minutes killing it because nobody can press their buttons well?

Not that they shouldn't exist, its that they shouldn't be as rigid as they are.
When mechanics get as hard as they do towards the end of a fight, those tend to be a harder check anyway. I'm not against dps checks, but the game sucks at preparing you for them.
The entire Abyssos fiasco should tell us its not something they test that much anymore either.

Tooltips, job guide, and Stone, Sky, Sea.

Lets be real, these are dogshit. I shouldn't need to go into why but fact of the matter is the game's rotations are community made nothing you really learn in game outside of the standard 123.
Stone Sky is Sea is not at all more useful than a striking dummy in your lawn. It doesn't really simulate uptime/downtime, mechanics or anything, its just there so people cant point to it and pretend there's actually a bridge between casual content and higher end content, which there is not.

The Balance is useful to learn a tip or too for optimization, but the core rotations are pretty obvious if you set it up and read it properly as you're doing it.

Well first of "But a Discord channel!" doesn't excuse the game's short comings, and I'd say the game doesn't really teach you optimal ways to play your job. Nowhere in the Tooltip for enshoroud does it say "waste time in this form by using random non-enshroud gcds so you can fit two enshrouds under the extremely strict timing of 2m raid buffs" as a random example.

I'd also say a lot of tool tips are very vague, poorly worded, or littered with so many "Additional Effect" that figuring shit out isn't as easy as you're making it sound. Of course thats where The Balance comes in, but then that's a community thing, not a in game resource. I'm not going to give the game a pass because it has a wikipedia article.

They have always designed content for both

Kind of? They do make high and low end content, but not in a way that's conducive of offering players a road to get into the hardest content on their own.

The biggest difficulty jump in this game is from Normal baseline content to Extreme. There is very, very little content in this game that could arguably even be placed around this level. I think this is why so many people just MSQ tourist this game, because once the game stops holding your hand and dumps you off a cliff, you're left wondering what there is even to do.

The game doesn't teach you anything outside of the core fundamentals of press 123, avoid aoe. Try even slightly harder content and you'll get utterly stomped. Tanks aren't taught to mitigate, DPS aren't taught the intricacies of their combos, Supports are just a mess really. Its a pretty miserable experience if you don't have outside tools to help you

[Renathras]

...

Correct on all counts, I think.

The only Job that really IS hyper-intuitive is SMN (though the tooltips are atrocious logging in at level 80 and getting on SMN the first time, starting at level 1 and going up to level 90 seems a lot more understandable since you aren't just thrown everything up to Phoenix all at once and having to figure out which things in your spellbook upgrade to what).

The Job widely panned by the community as "braindead" or "too easy". But it's the only Job more or less DESIGNED around the 2 min meta. A full Bahamut, 3 Primals, Phoenix, 3 Primals closes out a 2 minute loop with maybe one or two Ruin 3 fillers in there. Meaning it's a Job that teaches you - indirectly - about the 2 min meta. Because that's LITERALLY the only way to play it unless you're spamming Ruin and sitting on Bahamut/Pheonix CDs for some reason none could possibly fathom. Moreover, again something widely complained about, the Primals do roughly the same damage so there's no optimization other than "when is it safe to use Ifrit". While people complain about that, this again is a Job that actually works for players who only "read their tooltips"; there's no (or rather VERY small) difference between which Primal you use after Bahamut in the burst phase. And the Job has a 2 min CD, meaning the player can intuitively track when their "burst" is coming back up, and it lasts for 30 seconds, meaning the player doesn't have to be nearly as tight on the specific GCD they use it after. Even if they don't understand what the 2 min meta is or the concept of aligning with other Job's buffs, SMN works.

SMN is what Jobs would be like in this game if we relied on "read your tooltips" and made Jobs where "read your tooltips" got you the optimal rotation.

While some concepts are relatively easy - 1-2-3 combos, RDM's Dualcast and burst after 50/50 Mana, BLM's Fire/Ice back and forth - playing those Jobs at all optimally requires far FAR more than that. Then you get into cases like MNK which has a 21 (I believe it is) step combo (lining up the 1-2-3 4-5-6 1-2-6 4-5-6... it makes a closed loop after 21 steps), and that's ignoring when you use the three-of-one-kind to get the Nadi, which briefly bumps the overarching cycle. Learning RDM isn't just "build 50/50 using Dualcast back and forth and then doing your melee combo" but is based around having three melee combos per 2 minute period and trying to get two of them (rarely, part of three) into buff windows. I'm not sure who would even know what a "Transpose Line" is without either going to the Balance or having someone who has tell you about them.

So while some Jobs are easy to understand the basic CONCEPT of in broad brushstrokes, most that won't get you anywhere NEAR an optimal rotation. And that's some Jobs. Some aren't even that. BRD is kind of all over the place, even if it just has one GCD and the rest are "use these when they're up", it is all over the place to the point even most BRDs are annoyed with it at this point.

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Offhand, the only Jobs that teach you more or less the optimal rotation just by playing them/reading the tooltips are pst-6.3 PLD, WAR (arguably because it's so simple, though you won't learn Beast Gauge optimization), GNB to a point ("have enough gauge to use abilities, and use No Mercy, Double Down, Sonic Break, and [with ~0 skill speed] Gnashing Fang, Bow Shock, and Danger/Blasting Zone on CD, Burst Strike to avoid overcapping), WHM (AST if we're only talking the damage rotation, but not if we include the cards) and SGE (if only because Healer optimal rotations outside of SCH largely consist of "don't overcap and use on CD" and understanding Assize and to a lesser extent Earthly Star are damage abilities used on CD, the healing is just a bonus in the case of Assize and is slightly controllable in the case of Star) [SCH has a bit of optimization...but the difference between fully optimized and not is relatively small]*, and SMN. To a far lesser extent, DNC (if you unga its bunga), MCH (if you weave bunga during unga), and BRD (if you bunga all the unga as they pop randomly and ignore that song order actually matters), but you'll likely be more suboptimal with those (thankfully in the case of DNC and to an extent BRD, your party is doing the actual damage to help you out provided you're buffing them right...)

In other words, all the Jobs the community often attacks as being "braindead" and/or "too easy". The community that either lives on The Balance or, at the least, references it when a new expansion or major ability changing patch is released. Because with those resources, sure, some of those Jobs may seem easy; indeed, they are arguably the easier Jobs to do well on. BECAUSE they're largely intuitive and the nuance detail stuff is only needed to get a marginal difference on the top end. WITHOUT all those resources and reference? They're the only Jobs that are even approachable to play at an optimal level.

*Note for Healers I'm talking about their damage. Their healing kits can be easy and intuitive (WHM) or...less so (the others), though if you have the mind of a Healer player to even be playing them to begin with, those are MOSTLY understandable...as long as you read The Balance or a guide that tells you what an oGCD is. Because that's right: The game never tells you that "Action" actually IS DIFFERENT from "Spell". All of us HERE know it, but we didn't always. We've known it for so long and dealt with it for so long. But I started in 2.3. I remember thinking on SCH it was weird how Lustrate would go off right after a Physic or Bio but Adlo would not. On WHM, I noticed this same thing with Tetra vs Regen, both instant casts but only Tetra (in HW) would go off whenever I hit it while Regen wouldn't go off right away if I had just used Aero or another Regen. WEIRD, huh? It wasn't until SB - TWO WHOLE EXPANSIONS later - when I watched a YouTube guide on SCH, that I actually learned (a) what oGCD vs GCD actually was - that the abbreviations even existed and (b) that things like Dissipation that say "healing MAGIC" refer ONLY to the things marked "Spell", NOT the things marked "Action".

You reading this are like "lol, Ren, you're so stupid! _I_ figured that out the first hour I played the game! Heck, I figured it out on the character creation screen!"

If so, good for you.

But then there's everyone who isn't a 180 IQ super genius like yourself. In ShB, I was asked by people in my FC at the time to teach them how to heal. Some of these players had been playing since 1.X, but apparently, I was blowing away the healing metrics on whoever was running a parser at the time. I had them watch the video as well after asking them "Well, do you know what an oGCD is?" and getting a response of "What's an oGCD?" Then, depending on if they were playing WHM, SCH, or AST, I would tailor the discussion to their Job (because I have a fine mind for healing in general, but understanding the interplay and difference between GCD and oGCD is essential to how healing works in this game.)

While I never say "no one" (and try to avoid absolute statements), I'd wager MOST people don't understand what an oGCD is unless someone explains it to them or they read a guide external to the game. As far as I'm aware, the game itself never says anything, and other than "Huh, this spell goes off instantly every time when these others don't...why is that?", most people won't learn the difference on their own, much less those nuanced things like "Spell/Actionskill" vs "Actions" buffing tooltips.

And oGCD is a HUGE part of the game.

It's basically required for optimal gameplay or even anything approaching it. Even super-easy SMN is going to be doing less damage if the player is waiting 2.5 sec between casts including using things like Energy Drain or Ahk Mourn. And don't even get me started on triple weaves!

I would, in fact, argue that RIGHT after ABC, oGCD and weave understanding is the second most fundamental skill in this game to playing anywhere near optimally. If you know just those two things and otherwise roll your face across your keyboard, you'll at least get a Green in 24 mans, if not Blue, because so many players don't know the difference. It's that essential to doing good DPS and so many players don't understand it because the game literally tells you nothing and you HAVE to go outside of the game to learn what is a hyper-essential skill.

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I do love this game, but as far as "read your tooltips"; that's BS and we all know it.

No one figures out an optimal rotation on their own - not even SMN, since there IS some optimizing (albeit small) based on Primal order in burst and you MUST know the mechanics of the oGCD system the game has to get the most out of even it.

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Sorry for the rant, I just feel strongly when people are like "Most players are dumb/lazy, why don't they just read their tooltips, cause that's how I learned optimal play", because it's absolute total and unadulterated hogwash and we all know it. No, YOU didn't learn that way. No one did. You might not have used The Balance, but you read some guides somewhere or watched some YouTube ones that explained the basics to you, and you had AT LEAST that. Maybe you don't read The Balance every major patch, but you don't have to. You read it when you started playing your Job, and that, not you being the second coming of Einstein, is how you learned it.

Hell, even they didn't learn it from tooltips! The Balance folks have to use hours of parsing data - a third party and technially illegal tool - in order for them to figure it out. And I'd genuinely love to meet the first person that figured out how oGCDs work and started spreading that knowledge around the community/world.


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I shouldn't be TOO hard on it as there are a lot of things you CAN figure out on your own...kinda. Picking up WHM in ARR made perfect sense. There were no oGCD heals (other than Benediction; just PoM and Divine Seal and Fluid Aura if you felt frisky), Freecure gave you MP free Cure 2s back when...you know...MP mattered, and so on. But go from that to trying to play high end today? Not even in the same ballpark.

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Summary:

NOTE: This isn't me saying being bad is good or the game is impossible.

But it IS me saying how little you actually learn of your rotations and good play with the game itself. So bashing other players over it REALLY is unfair, and "just read your tooltips" to be good is absolute BS. "Read a guide" or "Watch YouTube guides" is how people get good in this game outside of some very few and rare individuals.

[Jeeqbit]

The entire Abyssos fiasco should tell us its not something they test that much anymore either.

The testing process was explained in detail so obviously they do. They just miscalculated it.

Lets be real, these are dogshit. I shouldn't need to go into why but fact of the matter is the game's rotations are community made nothing you really learn in game outside of the standard 123.

I don't agree with going so far as to say that the rotations are community made. Little optimizations about when to press things, maybe, but generally, doing your GCD combos that say "Combo Action:" and even show the combo in compact mode is simple and abilities you can just press off cooldown in most cases, even if optimizations can be made with that. You can usually tell what is more optimal by potency differences alone, or when something isn't meant to be hardcast because it's a really long cast. To me these things were obvious without looking anything up.

Stone Sky is Sea is not at all more useful than a striking dummy in your lawn. It doesn't really simulate uptime/downtime, mechanics or anything, its just there so people cant point to it and pretend there's actually a bridge between casual content and higher end content, which there is not.

You know if you're either significantly undergeared or executing the rotation poorly if you can't beat the 4th floor savage dummy though. You should at least be able to get it down in the crafted gear for that tier, or be within seconds of it. It's true that it doesn't simulate mechanics, but there is a way to tell if DPS isn't good enough in a raid: you will die to enrage.

I'd also say a lot of tool tips are very vague, poorly worded, or littered with so many "Additional Effect" that figuring shit out isn't as easy as you're making it sound.

It completely depends if you read the tooltips and job guide in the Actions & Traits menu. If you did that, the game explains it fine. But a lot of people are not as detailed as I am. Is it really the game's fault if people are not thorough and don't read things well? It would be ideal to have a training area for executing the basic rotation but I think their argument is it changes every expansion or even more frequently than that sometimes because it's an MMO.

Kind of? They do make high and low end content, but not in a way that's conducive of offering players a road to get into the hardest content on their own.

True, but the [Practice] tags on parties is inviting enough. The only thing they really need to know before trying out some practice is to check Party Finder.