How to Restore Confidence in FFXIV

[Jojoya]

It isn't that we forgot what it's like to be a new player but rather it isn't relevant to the discussion.

I have to disagree that it's not relevant. New players are paying customers just the same as the veteran players. Even if the side content is optional, many new players feel like it's content they have to catch up on because it's there.

The playable part of content this expansion isn't in worse shape than last expansion quantity wise. There have been some changes (such as Deep Dungeon instead of exploration zone, getting Variant/Criterion while the normal trial series got merged into MSQ instead of a separate quest chain, etc.) but we're getting just as much playable content overall.

It sounds more like the quality of the content and/or the rewards making the content less interesting to repeat.

What made Eden more interesting to repeat than Pandaemonium has been?

What made the Sorrows of Werlyt trials more interesting to repeat than Storm's Crown/Mount Ordeals?

It's a lot more difficult to try to compare Bozja/Zadnor versus Eureka Orthos/Si'dihn Subteranne because they're different content types but what kept people going back into the former while they ignore the latter?

Was there other content they were doing in Shadowbringers to fill time that doesn't have an equivalent this expansion, and what was so appealing about it?

[Deo14]

I have to disagree that it's not relevant. New players are paying customers just the same as the veteran players. Even if the side content is optional, many new players feel like it's content they have to catch up on because it's there.

The playable part of content this expansion isn't in worse shape than last expansion quantity wise. There have been some changes (such as Deep Dungeon instead of exploration zone, getting Variant/Criterion while the normal trial series got merged into MSQ instead of a separate quest chain, etc.) but we're getting just as much playable content overall.

It sounds more like the quality of the content and/or the rewards making the content less interesting to repeat.

What made Eden more interesting to repeat than Pandaemonium has been?

What made the Sorrows of Werlyt trials more interesting to repeat than Storm's Crown/Mount Ordeals?

It's a lot more difficult to try to compare Bozja/Zadnor versus Eureka Orthos/Si'dihn Subteranne because they're different content types but what kept people going back into the former while they ignore the latter?

Was there other content they were doing in Shadowbringers to fill time that doesn't have an equivalent this expansion, and what was so appealing about it?

I think comparing SB to EW would be more accurate, since SB had Eureka and DD, while EW has DD and 2 new types of content. Let's give EW small benefit and call HoH and EO equal. I'm not super passionate DD player, but I think HoH > EO, especially since HoH innovated DD, while EO is just HoH V2 without any major innovation. Only big change is dread beasts, but you just one shot it with pom of storm or skip it entirely.

So now that both DDs negate each other, we are left with Eureka vs IS and V&C.

Eureka is 4 maps + Baldesion arsenal. There is multiple new progression systems inside - your elemental level, element attunement, some very rare drops that have special effects inside Eureka and most importantly, logograms for Pyros and up. There is relic weapon progression for all of these maps + relic armor for Anemos (granted it's just dyeable artifact armor) and brand new relic armor sets for Pyros, Hydatos and BA. There are also that special chestpieces that give elemental bonus, which are still costy today. You can still sell logos for pretty good profit, too.

As for EW, there is IS, which, let's be real, is just excel simulator, everything on the island is there just to fuel the workshop. You can leisurely get max rank while playing 20-30 minutes per day for 2 weeks, after that, content is finished and you're left with checking out your island for 3 minutes per week. All the while entire content is barely connected to the main game.

Then V&C, which is great but has no incentives to run it again. There isn't really a progression, even though it has system similar to logos/lost actions. There is only 5 very basic, bland spells. Jump from variant to ASS is too big, which is shame since there is lack of content in between normal and EX/Savage content. But there is still benefit of doubt, since there should be 2 more dungeons released and rewards should be improved according to last LL. Whether that means more materia and one time rewards remains to be seen.

So I'm not going tell you that you are wrong for enjoying EW (unlike some people in here who try to convince me that I hate this game). If you don't play much I can see people enjoying simple one and done content like IS and V&C more than Eureka, but if you want to play more than 2 weeks per patch, then I think past expansions are much better for that.

[Jeeqbit]

Scions going through plot armor again is becoming old

Perhaps in general, but in the context of that very specific area that just wasn't their goal. Maybe they could have had despair consume one of them earlier in the story at Thavnair or something like that, sure.

Garlemald being another ruined City feels underwhelming

I'd admit I was a bit tired of always dealing with ruins and relics of the past instead of a thriving nation. I want to see an Allagan or Ronkan empire that is still thriving, a thriving Doma that isn't just a tiny square that we salvaged, Monks that aren't just a few survivors remaking the art, I could go on but so often, it's just rubble and ruins as if we missed the party.

I try to remind myself that as a sprout I was excited to see Sharlayan in the Hinterlands only to find rubble, but was finally able to see a thriving version in Endwalker or that we have modern thriving civlizations like the Grand Companies, Ironworks or Kugane.

So now that both DDs negate each other, we are left with Eureka vs IS and V&C.

Island Sanctuary is one map, but as of 6.4 will have had 2-3 increases to the ranks (like Eureka had increases to the level). Additional progression systems involve the quests, the workshop system, gathering enough materials and buying all the rewards. There are rare animals to obtain for your farm (although not FF11 rare). V&C have rare minion drops and a mount. Both Island Sanctuary and V&C have special actions similar to logograms.

There is relic weapon progression for all of these maps

Obviously we get that with Hildibrand now and it's much quicker. Special effects on armor seem to have happened for the raid armor instead.

You can still sell logos for pretty good profit, too.

You can sell V&C minions or crafter and gatherer materia from Island Sanctuary for a good profit too.

You can leisurely get max rank while playing 20-30 minutes per day for 2 weeks

Technically you could probably do that with Eureka as well. When it was current, I did each area in just a few 3-hour sessions. If we split 9 hours up into 30 minutes a day, it would take 18 days, which is close enough. Let's include Variant dungeons, which have multiple routes and we will have 3 of, in place of the other 3 areas. There just isn't the social interaction involved.

Of course, bosses and some area design are put into 3 V&C, Ocean Fishing, or the MSQ changes (although a small portion of that could come from the HM dungeons we got in Stormblood).

[Deo14]

Island Sanctuary is one map, but as of 6.4 will have had 2-3 increases to the ranks (like Eureka had increases to the level). Additional progression systems involve the quests, the workshop system, gathering enough materials and buying all the rewards. There are rare animals to obtain for your farm (although not FF11 rare).

Last increase to rank (10-12) was more of the same, just another glam set and other one time rewards. Nice of you to mention quests, since Eureka had them and they even had real story, unlike IS. Island upgrades are nice, I wouldn't mind comparing it to elemental level progression.

V&C have rare minion drops and a mount.

Most of the regular content has rare minion drop and some mount as a reward, this isn't meaningful progression.

Both Island Sanctuary and V&C have special actions similar to logograms.

I have no clue what special actions of IS you mean, maybe that weird sprint which is bound as duty action, instead of putting it in place of an actual sprint? And V&C has five (5!) special actions which are bland and void of any creativity. Eureka has 50+ logos, many of which have very creative effects, like reflects and similar.

Obviously we get that with Hildibrand now and it's much quicker. Special effects on armor seem to have happened for the raid armor instead.

You could replace Hildibrand with just a Gerolt and much wouldn't change. It shouldn't be quicker, point of relic is (was) that there is some prestige in getting them. Now they're just alternate tome weapons. Those special effects are only on abyssos right now, I don't think there is some correlation.

You can sell V&C minions or crafter and gatherer materia from Island Sanctuary for a good profit too.

Rare drops are unreliable source of income. Materia from IS is timegated, so it's just a passive income. Unless you want to click on nodes 24/7, in which case, regular DoH/DoL activities are much more effective.

Technically you could probably do that with Eureka as well. When it was current, I did each area in just a few 3-hour sessions. If we split 9 hours up into 30 minutes a day, it would take 18 days, which is close enough. Let's include Variant dungeons, which have multiple routes and we will have 3 of, in place of the other 3 areas. There just isn't the social interaction involved.

You do IS once and you're done, same with V&C. You do Eureka relic from start to finish and you have 14 other relics to get. And after that, you can still make profit from just logos.

Also you did not account that Eureka takes much longer first time you do it because of leveling.

[Jeeqbit]

Last increase to rank (10-12) was more of the same, just another glam set and other one time rewards.

Could argue that other Eureka areas were "more of the same". More NMs, another big boss that drops an important item, a level cap increase.

Nice of you to mention quests, since Eureka had them and they even had real story, unlike IS.

V&C have the real story I suppose.

Most of the regular content has rare minion drop and some mount as a reward, this isn't meaningful progression.

So then neither is most of the loot in Eureka.

I have no clue what special actions of IS you mean

All the ones to feed animals, sow seeds, gather things, the V&C dot, mitigation, heals and rez. They aren't as spectacular as logos or lost actions, but they involve similar development. We could argue all the individual items and plants we pick and grow are using similar development work, because icons are made for them.

You do IS once and you're done, same with V&C. You do Eureka relic from start to finish and you have 14 other relics to get.

I agree. Although it does depend. You have to run Variant dungeons multiple times for the mount and can farm them for the minions and other rewards. You have a lot of Criterion runs to do if you want the mount. But I agree it's not the same as having lots of relics to do making the content replayable. They are also really boring to repeat, especially Variant dungeons (I gave up and just bought the minions).

Also you did not account that Eureka takes much longer first time you do it because of leveling.

I did. It only took me a few sessions of 3 hours per area, when it was current. I did it extremely casually between other content I was into, yet enjoyed every second of it.

[Deo14]

Could argue that other Eureka areas were "more of the same". More NMs, another big boss that drops an important item, a level cap increase.

I think that brand new maps and bosses are better than new glam set and few new materials, which are effectively just a bunch of .jpgs and some item descriptions. We'll see what new updates brings, but so far, it's really barebones. I was hoping for new features or new map area, not just more of the same. But I honestly don't think I can really enjoy IS anymore. Reaching rank 10 killed it for me, since flying just completely ruins any immersion.

V&C have the real story I suppose.

Can't comment on that, I just skimmed through most of it.

So then neither is most of the loot in Eureka.

Most of the loot in Eureka is logograms and gil from bunnies. Rare items are just sprinkles on top. Unfortunately, plenty of content in the game only has these sprinkles.

All the ones to feed animals, sow seeds, gather things, the V&C dot, mitigation, heals and rez. They aren't as spectacular as logos or lost actions, but they involve similar development. We could argue all the individual items and plants we pick and grow are using similar development work, because icons are made for them.

I would really not call feeding an animal "special action". As for V&C actions, yes, they are simply bland and give no creativity, it doesn't matter they involve "similar development", they're hardly comparable on what they bring to a table.

I agree. Although it does depend. You have to run Variant dungeons multiple times for the mount and can farm them for the minions and other rewards. You have a lot of Criterion runs to do if you want the mount. But I agree it's not the same as having lots of relics to do making the content replayable. They are also really boring to repeat, especially Variant dungeons (I gave up and just bought the minions).

All we can hope is that they will fix those rewards. It's such a shame that good content died because they expected that people will be happy to run content just for the hell of it. On the flipside, I haven't see many people claiming that "content needs no rewards" since V&C released.

[Jeeqbit]

All we can hope is that they will fix those rewards. It's such a shame that good content died because they expected that people will be happy to run content just for the hell of it. On the flipside, I haven't see many people claiming that "content needs no rewards" since V&C released.

I don't necessarily think rewards would make me enjoy running Variant dungeons any more, but it would have been better the Manderville weapons asking us to do that than just be like buying it from the market board.

I don't think the Criterion dungeon lacks rewards because it has a mount, but it could be more worthwhile to raiders who are progging savage by dropping tomestone augments. As it is now, you can put it off and do it later, just like ultimates, because both sync to the tier.