Minor Idea: White Mage eddition

[Sebazy]

1) Read the OP again:

Missed that part, sorry! 2 makes more sense with ranged holy as an addition but honestly I still prefer thundercloud procs over such a simple rotation. As for ranged holy that can still be cast on yourself without a target itself, I could take it or leave it. It has it's merits and I can definitely appreciate that hunkering down under the mob stack isn't for everyone. Even with it, I'd still be personally attached at the hip to the tank in dungeon runs though.

Regarding 3, the idea would not be to refresh them after they detonate, but the main focus here is that it just takes the dot damage you've built up as the pack is being positioned (You dot on the run right? If not, you should be), and front loads it all but guaranteeing you a Misery to really get a nice satisfying chunk DPS in a similar way to how DNC front loads so much damage with Technical Step > Standard Step.

I'm not really sure how it makes the optimal rotation impossible to calculate though? The math is really no different to existing multi dotting and is simple to calculate with a timeline.

Lets go with an 6 mob pull. We've detonated our dia bomb and we think the mobs are going to survive long enough to reapply Dia and go for another detonation. The right value is our total potency up to that point refreshing dia on 6 mobs and then holy spamming for a detonate, the middle is our potency just spamming holy, the left is our timeline in seconds. To keep things simple we're going to ignore crits and spell speed to get a feel for how it's going to shape up. As ever, the caveat applies that this is quick off the top of my head math, if there's a fundamental mistake in the sums by all means point it out, but I think it's accurate enough to drive the point home.

2.5 - 900 - 60 - First mob dotted
3.0 - 1800 - 120
5.0 - 2700 - 180 - Second mob dotted
6.0 - 3600 - 300
7.5 - 4500 - 360 - 3rd
9.0 - 5400 - 540
10.0 - 6300 - 600 - 4th
12.0 - 7200 - 840
12.5 - 8100 - 900 - 5th
15.0 - 9000 - 1260 - All 6 are dotted now, the dot tick aligns with the GCD here
17.5 - 9900 - 1410 - If we detonate now, our shortest dot has 5 ticks remaining for 300 potency, the longest has it's full 10 ticks remaining for 600 potency. With 6 dots I make that a total of 2700 potency.

So even if we detonate here, we're miles off the mark multi dotting at this stage vs just mashing Holy. It's not worth going more in-depth because nothing is going to make up that kind of deficit. Really the only optimisation question would be weighing up popping a Lily if you needed to move out of an AoE vs throwing a Dia, but if you're optimising to that level you're either ignoring the AoE outright and just eating it, or using Swiftcast to Holy as you move.

I get that you don't like the idea and this probably isn't going to change a thing in your eyes. But hopefully it clears up the misconception if nothing else.

*Edit* On RNG, I actually disagree, with caveats though

Negative RNG variance in abilities sucks. Going for a button that you expect to use only for it to not be ready/available is a bad time. 4.0 Lilies, Selene haste, AST Lady and the AST haste card are but a few examples of where this has arisen in places.

However, positive RNG where you get more than you were expecting can be great. Go back a few tiers when bosses hit tanks harder and crit heals on said tanks were great, frequently freeing up an entire GCD for more dps. That's why I really want something like Thundercloud for one of the healers, It's literally a sparkling 660 potency proc with an insta cast. You get a juicy number and it breaks up the monotony of DPSing a little by adding in just a touch of RNG with no downsides.

RNG on healers doesn't have to be a bad thing.

[AmiableApkallu]

But if I'm healing, I'm watching other things (like health bars), meaning I don't have as much mental RAM to devote to watching for procs. It's why procs aren't generally a great system for Healers.

Just because you lack the mental bandwidth doesn't mean everyone lacks the mental bandwidth.

Also, watching for procs isn't the only way. Listening can also be an option. Currently, all of the following come with a sound effect:

• SGE's Addersting proc
• DNC reaching 50 Espirit
• DNC capping at four feathers
• DRK's TBN breaking
• PLD reaching 50 Oath Gauge
• SAM reaching 3 stacks of Meditation
• WHM generating a Lily
• WHM fully nourishing the Blood Lily

[Renathras]

In fact, can you do me a favor and reread the old idea for me:

Sorry, missed this til now.

1) Plenary moved to 74 is fine, but I personally like the idea of it upgrading from Protect better.

2) Rapture at 70 would be nice as well.

3) Stoneskin being based on Lilies is kinda...meh. I would rather just see a castable one, though having a Lily spender for when everyone's at max health wouldn't go amiss, so I'm neutral on this one, but leaning towards okay with it.

4) Lower level Misery should be much lower. I would arguably put it at 30 or 35, and have WHM learn Solace at 30. This would cement the way Lilies/Misery work early and mix up the lower level rotation more. At highest, I'd swap it with Stoneskin.

5) Bastion is just an upgrade, so it's fine.

6) Sanctuary is a nice idea. In a reverse of how SCH and SGE have a 400p party heal with their AF/AG resource, WHM gets an AOE Succor/Eu Prognosis. Seems fair to me.

7) I've agreed with this idea for Divine Seal for a while.

8) Is Protect in this sense single target or AOE? Again, I think it should be AOE like Plenary.

9) I've never liked Fluid Aura so I don't care much for this. We already have Assize, just make Assize lower level or a lower CD, or have FA be a lower level Assize. We don't need another oGCD damage ability used on CD. And I already told you what I think Water should be.

10) Aero/Dia - hate this with a passion. The thing I hated most about Healers in ARR, the single thing I hated, was how short the DoT durations were. I already hate DoTs, so making them EVEN MORE annoying is a hard no from me and always will be. I'd rather have a 15 sec GCD like Plegma that stacks to 2 than a DoT in general, but especially an even SHORTER DoT that I have to fiddle with even MORE often.

11) Do we really need another gauge? People complain all the time about Faerie Gauge just existing in service to one ability, and this is just that again. Moreover, I generally hate the aesthetic of "nature" spells unless I'm playing a Druid type class, which WHM is not (really, it's not; CNJ is, Druid would be, Geomancer would be, but that's a separate issue). But even ignoring that, this screams Faerie Gauge. The second problem here is that this is basically SMN after Bahamut/Phoenix, and quite a few people cite that as one of the big problems with SMN right now, why missing burst is such a fail, and why death for them sucks so hard. Doing that with WHM seems ripe for all kinds of problems. And then...

12) An AOE Glare (but we already have Holy for that), an AOE Assize (but we already have...Assize...for that), and an AOE Dia (well, at least that's one we don't already have, I guess...); two out of three we already have, so these are kind of just redundant, and WHM already has so much redundant abilities. The last one is especially irksome because...well...DOTS. Seriously; hate DoTs...especially ones that don't interact with the kit, and this one doesn't. Though I do commend you for thinking of a way to make Dia DoT ticks at least mildly interact with the kit.

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The sad thing is, I'd LIKE this DPS rotation...on a DPS Job. And I don't mean that sarcastically. A DPS Job which had a basic nuke, a basic upkeep DoT with a short duration (every 4th GCD in single target), an oGCD 4x per minute, builds a gauge by taking any of those actions, spends 50 gauge probably at the 1 min mini-burst mark and 100 gauge (2x cycles of the big damage) during 2 min big burst phases. The burst consisting of one big hit, one big oGCD, and one big DoT spread, which each stacking twice. In the burst you'd lead in with Blessing, (having used one some time before getting to your 100 cap again for burst), then with the DoT (Tornado), weave Flood into Quake, Flood and Quake again, (now you have 0 Flood, 0 Quake, 1 Tornado remaining), Blessing again, weave Flood into Quake, Tornado again to snapshot under the burst, then get back to your normal Stone/Aero rotation until Tornado wears off, and then cast it again to refresh that DoT as well.

Throw in some extra stuff like a damage boost ability, a Thundercloud proc, and something like Infuriate to get 50 gauge and that would be a pretty fun DPS Job.

If they added Geomancer to the game with that, I think I'd like the Job a lot. Make it branch from CNJ and I'd have a field day with that.

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Just because you lack the mental bandwidth doesn't mean everyone lacks the mental bandwidth.

Which is why there are other Healers. Yay!

[Semirhage]

I will point out for the hundredth time: the healer role is the -only one- that people regularly argue that we neeeeeeeeed a Boring One That Sucks, because if we don't it's too "pressuring" and "scary" and "the queues would collapse"

Maybe I could go over to the DPS subforum and tell all the Samurai mains that it neeeeeeeds to be the Boring One That Sucks because otherwise the seas will boil, the casuals will rend their garments, and Armageddon will kick off if any slight whisper of a skill ceiling makes its way onto the job that MUST be there for casuals who hate complexity.

[Renathras]

I will point out for the hundredth time: the healer role is the -only one- that people regularly argue that we neeeeeeeeed a Boring One...

No it's not.

People say this about Tanking and DPSing. And have several options that fit it - WAR for Tanks and SMN for DPSers. Before SMN, it was RDM, BRD, and/or DNC.

It's actually been true for most of the game's history that each Role had at least one simple one, and the simple ones were often the most played, but always had adamant fans of its playstyle who didn't want it changed.

EDIT: And as I've told you before, this isn't even limited to FFXIV but tends to be true across MMOs and even into other genres. Most games have an "easy one" if they have a diverse set of options. FFXIV is no different. BRD was the "easy one" for much of the game's history in terms of DPS Jobs. WHM for Healers. Tanks were arguably the Role that didn't have an easy one until WAR drifted into that position, and PLD has somewhat joined it. And if you go look at the Tank forum, you'll see there are some PLD die-hard-opposed-to-6.3 people, but also a lot of people touting it as generally good and/or a step in the right direction.

A very common question on Reddit for FFXIV is "I want to pick up X role - which Job is the easy/easiest one?"

This isn't new or unique to Healers in any way. The only thing that's relatively new is people insisting there shouldn't be one.

[GrimGale]

At this point I am conviced adding a basic set of talents with choices in passive/active abilities is the choice that will make everybody happy. It will add much needed player expression, will allow Devs more creativity without necessarily adding more button bloat and will allow new players and veteran players to tailor their favourite jobs to their preferred level of simplicity.

[ASkellington]

No it's not.

Yeah it is. WAR still has the exact same template as the other 3 tanks - 1-2-3 combo ~6ish defensive options and a burst rotation - Fell Cleaves.

DRK also has discount Fell Cleave with dark arts spam. It literally is no different.

If all four tanks can have a 1-2-3 combo shared between them, there is 0 reason for 3 healers to get extra dps options and leave 1 behind.

You keep on insisting that adding the options therefor means WHM is no longer the "easy healer" when you are blatantly wrong since we can add the extra dps options WHILE STILL KEEPING WHM an easy to get into healer.

[Renathras]

Yeah it is.

No, it's not.

The question wasn't "how similar are the Tanks", nor was it "how many abilities can a thing have and still be simple"; it was "no other Role has people asking that there be a simple one. The other Roles ABSOLUTELY have people wanting a simple one and that is a thing people want.

At least read things before replying to them.

And for reference, they all ARE different:

GNB isn't at all like WAR. It doesn't have a 1-2-3/-4 upkeep buff with a burst rotation of "press one button then press another button 5 times". You can try to oversimplify it, but go into the Tank forum or FFXIV Discussion and say "WAR plays just like GNB" and you're likely to get laughed at, if not outright destroyed with a bunch of "well ackshually" people setting you straight.

WAR has a branching Combo. PLD used to, but now it's got a secondary sub-combo. GNB has an entire second combo interspaced with oGCD alternations. No, they are not "all the same", and no one who seriously theorycrafts or plays Tanks would make that statement. The closest two are DRK and WAR.

Your argument is akin to saying "Well, GNB has charges it has to manage based on completing its base combo to build to a big burst spender and secondary combo. So every Tank must have a 3 charge system with a big burst spender that consumes 2 charges and a secondary combo that consumes 1 and has a 30 sec CD on use."

No, that'd be STUPID. In fact, most of the Tanks are complaining when they think that the Tanks ARE moving towards each other. The biggest complaint about the PLD rework is "It makes PLD more like GNB". Yet you're insisting that all the Healers should be the same, when that's the very thing the Tanks are complaining about.

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"No it's not." was correct.

[fulminating]

One of the bigger complaints about drk is how dull it is outside of burst. And let’s not begin to pretend that whm remotely approaches the complexity of either war or drk in terms of the damage rotation.

E: asking for each healer to have a reasonably deep damage kit isn’t asking for homogenisation. Eg giving scholar a variety of dots and fester and so on and giving white mage rng procs and giving sage continuation or whatever wouldn’t be asking for them all to be more similar than they are now.

[Renathras]

One of the bigger complaints about drk is how dull it is outside of burst.

Which also wasn't the question/topic.

And let’s not begin to pretend that whm remotely approaches the complexity of either war or drk in terms of the damage rotation.

Which also wasn't the question/topic.

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It's almost like people aren't reading things before replying to them. It's seeming to happen so much and be so noticeable since someone stated they weren't doing it that I'm half-wondering if the reason we can't have productive conversations or reach agreement here is people just aren't reading what the people they disagree with them are posting...

E: asking for each healer to have a reasonably deep damage kit isn’t asking for homogenisation. Eg giving scholar a variety of dots and fester and so on and giving white mage rng procs and giving sage continuation or whatever wouldn’t be asking for them all to be more similar than they are now.

Asking for them all to have DPS rotations is more homogenization than asking for one not to. Especially considering how many proposals are either "have procs", "have DoTs" (indeed, none of you have yet proposed a DoT-less design that I've seen), and "build a gauge to spend on DPS" are homogenization when it's proposed that every Healer get it. If every Healer had another DoT and the only distinction was SCH could spread theirs, that would be even more homogenization than now, and more obnoxious.

Though you are the first person I've seen propose SGE have continuation. So...that's new.

Indeed, now that I think of it:

Everyone here spends so much time fighting me on WHM and proposing a dozen different ways to give WHM a more complex rotation (which all somehow boil down to "add some more damage abilities, namely another DoT, some kind of a proc system, and some kind of gauge builder/spender), with the rare (Ty, mainly) person mentioning any of the other Jobs. I think _I_ have proposed more SGE damage rotation suggestions than you guys have.