Minor Idea: White Mage eddition

[GrimGale]

Direct mechanical relationships are pretty much always a good way to make the gameplay more interesting. You'll find a lot of healer mains would be behind some sort of Proc system for their classes- Though some might suprise you (Probably on the high end of things) by saying the RNG of a proc system is bad and should be avoided.

[Semirhage]

I will point out for the hundredth time: the healer role is the -only one- that people regularly argue that we neeeeeeeeed a Boring One That Sucks, because if we don't it's too "pressuring" and "scary" and "the queues would collapse"

Maybe I could go over to the DPS subforum and tell all the Samurai mains that it neeeeeeeds to be the Boring One That Sucks because otherwise the seas will boil, the casuals will rend their garments, and Armageddon will kick off if any slight whisper of a skill ceiling makes its way onto the job that MUST be there for casuals who hate complexity.

[Renathras]

I will point out for the hundredth time: the healer role is the -only one- that people regularly argue that we neeeeeeeeed a Boring One...

No it's not.

People say this about Tanking and DPSing. And have several options that fit it - WAR for Tanks and SMN for DPSers. Before SMN, it was RDM, BRD, and/or DNC.

It's actually been true for most of the game's history that each Role had at least one simple one, and the simple ones were often the most played, but always had adamant fans of its playstyle who didn't want it changed.

EDIT: And as I've told you before, this isn't even limited to FFXIV but tends to be true across MMOs and even into other genres. Most games have an "easy one" if they have a diverse set of options. FFXIV is no different. BRD was the "easy one" for much of the game's history in terms of DPS Jobs. WHM for Healers. Tanks were arguably the Role that didn't have an easy one until WAR drifted into that position, and PLD has somewhat joined it. And if you go look at the Tank forum, you'll see there are some PLD die-hard-opposed-to-6.3 people, but also a lot of people touting it as generally good and/or a step in the right direction.

A very common question on Reddit for FFXIV is "I want to pick up X role - which Job is the easy/easiest one?"

This isn't new or unique to Healers in any way. The only thing that's relatively new is people insisting there shouldn't be one.

[ASkellington]

No it's not.

Yeah it is. WAR still has the exact same template as the other 3 tanks - 1-2-3 combo ~6ish defensive options and a burst rotation - Fell Cleaves.

DRK also has discount Fell Cleave with dark arts spam. It literally is no different.

If all four tanks can have a 1-2-3 combo shared between them, there is 0 reason for 3 healers to get extra dps options and leave 1 behind.

You keep on insisting that adding the options therefor means WHM is no longer the "easy healer" when you are blatantly wrong since we can add the extra dps options WHILE STILL KEEPING WHM an easy to get into healer.

[Renathras]

Yeah it is.

No, it's not.

The question wasn't "how similar are the Tanks", nor was it "how many abilities can a thing have and still be simple"; it was "no other Role has people asking that there be a simple one. The other Roles ABSOLUTELY have people wanting a simple one and that is a thing people want.

At least read things before replying to them.

And for reference, they all ARE different:

GNB isn't at all like WAR. It doesn't have a 1-2-3/-4 upkeep buff with a burst rotation of "press one button then press another button 5 times". You can try to oversimplify it, but go into the Tank forum or FFXIV Discussion and say "WAR plays just like GNB" and you're likely to get laughed at, if not outright destroyed with a bunch of "well ackshually" people setting you straight.

WAR has a branching Combo. PLD used to, but now it's got a secondary sub-combo. GNB has an entire second combo interspaced with oGCD alternations. No, they are not "all the same", and no one who seriously theorycrafts or plays Tanks would make that statement. The closest two are DRK and WAR.

Your argument is akin to saying "Well, GNB has charges it has to manage based on completing its base combo to build to a big burst spender and secondary combo. So every Tank must have a 3 charge system with a big burst spender that consumes 2 charges and a secondary combo that consumes 1 and has a 30 sec CD on use."

No, that'd be STUPID. In fact, most of the Tanks are complaining when they think that the Tanks ARE moving towards each other. The biggest complaint about the PLD rework is "It makes PLD more like GNB". Yet you're insisting that all the Healers should be the same, when that's the very thing the Tanks are complaining about.

.

"No it's not." was correct.

[ASkellington]

No, it's not.

The question wasn't "how similar are the Tanks", nor was it "how many abilities can a thing have and still be simple"; it was "no other Role has people asking that there be a simple one. The other Roles ABSOLUTELY have people wanting a simple one and that is a thing people want.

At least read things before replying to them.

And for reference, they all ARE different:

If you're going to argue, READ WHAT I SAID.

ALL 4 have a 1-2-3 combo.

ALL 4 have the same Defensive CDs just renamed

AND ALL FOUR HAVE A BURST ROTATION.

Do go back and read with glasses this time WHERE exactly I said that WAR's burst rotation WAS THE SAME AS GNB's?

That's the thing. I didn't. YOU DID. Stop putting words in my mouth to fit your narrative that isn't there.

I compared DRK and WAR. Not WAR and GNB.

The point is, people keep saying that "oh healers can't have this because they need to focus on healing". I DON'T SEE TANKS HAVING ANY PROBLEM WITH A 3 STEP BASE COMBO ROTATION ON TOP OF A BURST ROTATION WHILE MITIGATING. So why there for are people so insistent on having healers that way is why I even made the comparison between them in the first place.

[GrimGale]

At this point I am conviced adding a basic set of talents with choices in passive/active abilities is the choice that will make everybody happy. It will add much needed player expression, will allow Devs more creativity without necessarily adding more button bloat and will allow new players and veteran players to tailor their favourite jobs to their preferred level of simplicity.

[fulminating]

One of the bigger complaints about drk is how dull it is outside of burst. And let’s not begin to pretend that whm remotely approaches the complexity of either war or drk in terms of the damage rotation.

E: asking for each healer to have a reasonably deep damage kit isn’t asking for homogenisation. Eg giving scholar a variety of dots and fester and so on and giving white mage rng procs and giving sage continuation or whatever wouldn’t be asking for them all to be more similar than they are now.

[Renathras]

One of the bigger complaints about drk is how dull it is outside of burst.

Which also wasn't the question/topic.

And let’s not begin to pretend that whm remotely approaches the complexity of either war or drk in terms of the damage rotation.

Which also wasn't the question/topic.

.

It's almost like people aren't reading things before replying to them. It's seeming to happen so much and be so noticeable since someone stated they weren't doing it that I'm half-wondering if the reason we can't have productive conversations or reach agreement here is people just aren't reading what the people they disagree with them are posting...

E: asking for each healer to have a reasonably deep damage kit isn’t asking for homogenisation. Eg giving scholar a variety of dots and fester and so on and giving white mage rng procs and giving sage continuation or whatever wouldn’t be asking for them all to be more similar than they are now.

Asking for them all to have DPS rotations is more homogenization than asking for one not to. Especially considering how many proposals are either "have procs", "have DoTs" (indeed, none of you have yet proposed a DoT-less design that I've seen), and "build a gauge to spend on DPS" are homogenization when it's proposed that every Healer get it. If every Healer had another DoT and the only distinction was SCH could spread theirs, that would be even more homogenization than now, and more obnoxious.

Though you are the first person I've seen propose SGE have continuation. So...that's new.

Indeed, now that I think of it:

Everyone here spends so much time fighting me on WHM and proposing a dozen different ways to give WHM a more complex rotation (which all somehow boil down to "add some more damage abilities, namely another DoT, some kind of a proc system, and some kind of gauge builder/spender), with the rare (Ty, mainly) person mentioning any of the other Jobs. I think _I_ have proposed more SGE damage rotation suggestions than you guys have.

[fulminating]

You write posts with character counts vastly exceeding the limit. If you want people to respond to what you mean, clear and concise is the way to go.

Honestly if it were up to me I’d delete sage for an expansion while the three normal healers were sorted out and then work out if it’s going to need more dark arts or something else. I don’t think anyone is asking for a dps rotation on par with the more involved dps jobs. Just more depth so it’s harder to fall asleep in basically all the content offered by the game.