Minor Idea: White Mage eddition

[Semirhage]

I don't dislike these ideas. I'd need to try them and find new things to want to tweak about them of course, but there's potential. They don't commit the sin of current-WHM design i.e. rewarding using healing abilities without regard to their effectiveness.

Honestly I think that's the major thing that separates DPS procs from healing ones. When you use Dancer or Red Mage abilities, you have your baseline proc-less rotation. You hope for a proc, because it's a nice little damage bump. Your outcomes are "good" and "better"; hitting the boss is never a bad thing. FFXIV's combat doesn't really ask you to stop your damage output at any point when you could choose to. Healing procs aren't like this. So I used Cure. Okay, cool. I got a Freecure proc. I could u-oh wait everyone's full. Better hope it doesn't fall off before I can use it. Oh I'm nearly capped on lilies! If I don't use one I'll lose a Misery. But everyone's full, guess I'll dedicate a moment to using a dead GCD then.

I guess if you frame procs as opportunities, the distinction becomes clear. The opportunity to deal damage is always useful. You don't have to take it if you have something more important to do, but the option is there. Healing opportunities are only useful if health is missing. DPS procs (like the ones you're suggesting here) are more satisfying because there's never any "wasted work". You didn't sit around doing the usefulness-equivalent of thumbing the Peloton button just because the devs decided to tie an extra boost somewhere else to it.

I'd definitely want much more of a skill ceiling on WHM, but I wouldn't object to this specific rearranging of the deck chairs.

[Katish]

This is an okay suggestion but:
1. Cure III is wonk targeting already and hard to gauge what it will hit, very niche use cases unless targeting yourself. Can we have the targeting of holy be in addition to how holy works now? (So when nontargeting it'd just go off as normal)
2a. Unfortunately it seems they are going from procs but this is a nice idea.
2b. That would less uninspired vs 2a.
3. Eh, I'd rather not want this, because it would upset presence of mind timing (I can get a holy in every second) unless it can be worked in.
---

I'd rather also them cut down on already existing button bloat for unique answering:
If it exists and does not need to exist, it shouldn't.
If there is a better skill that feels like an upgrade, that skill need not be duplicated. (Cure>Cure2) I've seen many persons cast these tier spells in higher content even so much so as 80+ as the tank.
Buttons worth removing in terms of evolution via from whm IMO:
Cure>Cure II and maybe even > Under Temperance and Presence of Mind changes Cure II > Cure III (so Cure III becomes more intuitive. Can make it the same potency as it has a cost to use now.)
Medica> Medica II
Aquaveil > Divine Benison (also absorbs Aquaveils effect)
Plenary Indulgence > Temperance (increase in heal potency)
(an outlier) Tetragrammation > Afflatus Solace (but now oGcD and only Solace, Rapture still GCD).
That's six button slots for unique actions in whm alone. Some being damage, some being unique to some new use case.
(I think people could even cut it down further but this would be a start)

[Renathras]

Can we have the targeting of holy be in addition to how holy works now? (So when nontargeting it'd just go off as normal)

I thought this was what I said? I'm not quite sure if we're saying the same thing or not, but I think so...?

Valid point on 2a, but 2b is basically like PLD's Holy Might, so if nothing else, I think we can reasonably say they'd be open to it.

Some of those would require modifications. For example, Cure 2 has a 0.5 sec longer cast and 400 more MP cost than Cure 1. If Cure 2 was made 1.5 sec cast and 400 MP cost, then that'd be fine. Medica to Medica 2 can also work, though Medica 2 would need its initial hit's potency to be equal to Medica 1 and a slightly lower the MP cost. It ARGUABLY does the same by the initial HoT tick going off with the cast, so just tweaking it to not seem like a downgrade would work. Cure 3 has a pretty unique use-case, though, so it can't really be made an upgrade to anything.

Plenary Indulgence isn't really like Temperance, though they could make Divine Seal (old removed ability) as a lower level Temperance and add Protect to Plenary Indulgence to make them cover more.

Tetra and Solace are likewise different, though I could see Divine Benison becoming Aquaveil (getting the reduced damage effect tacked on).

[Katish]

I thought this was what I said?

Then I agree with that idea but for 2B PLD is becoming less and less inspired so borrowing from that would be just that (wouldn't be surprised if they get a raise next update). Cure III wouldn't need to be an upgrade but a conditional usage that takes up Cure II's button under conditions and those conditions are: when under Presence of Mind or Temperance(either)...which again would make it more intuitive i.e why Cure III is named that but is actually AoE (Presence of Mind would allow for faster cast of it when needed and Temperance would make it so you need to plan true burst healing. Since the skill would now have a cost being one skill or other it would be also justifiable to keep it at Cure II original potency so when sprouts are using it they are not risking the tanks death by just spamming Cure III [this has happened in groups I have been in]). As for Plenary Indulgence and Temperance being one or the other, they answer the same question pumping up healing (while Temperance also has some mitigation it still shares heal pumping) when there could be other class defining structures like one healer having AoE esuna or more damaging skills or really any new skill (movement, tethers, procks, stances, whatever) and ironically this alone would start seperating healer identity if its really thought on in terms of which healer would get what.. As for mp costs those shouldn't matter given if you're balancing lucid dreaming you're probably fine but I wouldn't mind adjusting it down if needed to appease those bad at heal timing. But yeah, since we're limited in buttons due to controller restraints it would make sense to have buttons feel more unique in terms of what they answer rather than what they are.

[Renathras]

...

Honestly, Cure 3's name should be Cura 1. The idea is that Cure 1/2 are for single targets, Medica 1/2 are for multiple targets that need middling healing (or gradual healing), while Cure 3 (ideally "Cura") is for a short range but bigger healing, for when people must be healed quickly and can stack to do so as the trade-off.

Cure 3 being conditional doesn't work because of that.

As for PI and Temperance - sorta, but no. Temperance is mitigation (reduces damage taken) and healing of all types. PI is specifically if AOE healing is needed to recover from damage taken. It's like saying Cure 2 and Medica are the same thing. Moreover, you generally need to heal multiple sections of big hits during big boss fights. So if you use Temperance, sure, you got through that mechanic. What do you do in 40 seconds when the next big spike of party damage comes in? Right now, you can use PI for that. But without PI, now what do you do? You could ask that Temperance's CD be reduced, but it would need to be reduced to 40 seconds or something like that for this to work.

I suppose it all comes down to how you broke the Healers out, but WHM isn't the first choice of Healer with an expansive damage kit. SGE would probably be the first choice for that, then SGE second choice.

WHM is in a weird spot in that it has oGCDs, instant cast GCDs, and cast time GCDs that do the same thing, but they each have distinct castes. Cure 2 exists if you need to heal over and over and can stand still. Solace does that, but can only be used a limited number of times, but can be used during movement. Tetra does that, can be used while moving, can even be weaved between casts to get in an instant heal if the person would have died otherwise, but is highly limited to just one use at a time. Combining them would be like if we took Lustrate and Adlo and Excog and said they were just one ability now, or Benefic, Aspected Benefic, and Essential Dignity on AST. There are some things that seem superficially similar, but have distinct use cases.

[ForsakenRoe]

Honestly, Cure 3's name should be Cura 1. The idea is that Cure 1/2 are for single targets, Medica 1/2 are for multiple targets that need middling healing (or gradual healing), while Cure 3 (ideally "Cura") is for a short range but bigger healing, for when people must be healed quickly and can stack to do so as the trade-off.

There's precedent for it with FF11 too, afaik the number dictates the strength (Cure 3 is stronger than Cure 2) and the -aga suffix dictates it being 'weaker, but AOE', so 'Curaga 3' is a thing that can exist, despite older games having Cure 3 and Curaga as the same thing. Only problem is, they do actually use Curaga in JP, in fact EN is the only one that uses the numbers system instead of suffixes, here's an old reddit thread with some examples. EN being the way it is really backs the naming into a corner, but I guess there'd be a lot of confusion now if we changed Fire 2 to 'Firaga' and High Fire 2 to 'Firaga 2'

[Katish]

Honestly, Cure 3's name should be Cura 1. The idea is that Cure 1/2 are for single targets, Medica 1/2 are for multiple targets that need middling healing (or gradual healing), while Cure 3 (ideally "Cura") is for a short range but bigger healiĺng

As for PI and Temperance - sorta, but no. Temperance is mitigation (reduces damage taken) and healing of all types. PI is specifically if AOE healing is needed to recover from damage taken. It's like saying Cure 2 and Medica are the same thing. Moreover, you generally need to heal multiple sections of big hits during big boss fights. So if you use Temperance, sure, you got through that mechanic. What do you do in 40 seconds when the next big spike of party damage comes in? Right now, you can use PI for that. But without PI, now what do you do? You could ask that Temperance's CD be reduced, but it would need to be reduced to 40 seconds or something like that for this to work.

I suppose it all comes down to how you broke the Healers out, but WHM isn't the first choice of Healer with an expansive damage kit. SGE would probably be the first choice for that, then SGE second choice.

I never said to increase Cure III's range just to give a cost at the expense of 1 less button which is an additional gain and synergy to the skillset.
As for outgoing damage, you time your heals if it's not enough then they should reconsider some heal potencies... they shouldn't have two skills pump healing even if one of them is for specific healing, they both answer the same question where one is less useful. As for sage, there is already enough safe healing over whm here and moreover in terms of regen(they have the most regens). It can outheal whm when it comes to ocgd healing without any trade off between dps and healing and they do can this continuously as timing allows them to, they would need to address this issue before that could become a thing by removing the regens from them. IMHO they set a SGE rework up for failure as it is. They can already outdps and outheal a white mage where it matters, so the question would be why even bring white mage? WHM play to be more risky in terms of dps vs healing. That's why each of the healers should excel at something other than just healing as a unique case for each, cause healing has multiple buttons to answer it either by party or single target. And the dichotomy of pure and shield healer need not be a thing...

[Sebazy]

Regarding the suggestions in the OP:

1) Heck no for the reasons mentioned in the SCH thread. Changing Holy to be targeted akin to Gravity is 100% a nerf and substantial DPS loss even if you don't realise it. Holy has some unique advantages in it's current form that IMHO outweigh the 'disadvantage' of needing to close.

2) Thundercloud procs are something I've suggested and would absolutely get behind. 3x Holy after 3 glares I'm not so keen on, it's not got the unpredictability of procs so you're effectively making a 1112 rotation which is something, but a very meeeeh something IMO, I'd rather see something a bit more interesting that breaks up the monotony a bit... Like Thundercloud procs . (Also side note, assuming the cast time stayed as is, weaving on the Holy part of the rotation would be an issue).

3) I'd never say no to more Lilies, but I think it could be executed in a more satisfying stylish way. I'd suggest the following:

Holy has a 10% chance on hit to cause Dia on a target to detonate for it's remaining potency removing the dot in the process. This detonation will trigger any other Dia in a 5y radius to explode as well. Grants 1 additional Blood lily for every 3 targets hit by this detonation.

IMHO this would be neat but really quite deceptive. In a fairly typical 8 mob double trash pack pull you'd proc the detonation almost immediately and get a pair of Blood Lilies to boot likely landing you with a meaty upfront lump of potency right off the bat as you explode the full duration Dias and likely follow up with a Misery in the following GCD. The reality is that the only DPS gain is the extra Blood Lilies though, as assuming you're dotting mobs on the pull, it's generally the norm for dots to run their duration before the pack dies. If you genuinely wanted more damage, you could increase the power of this by having the detonation deal the full dot damage rather than just the remaining potency, but that may be a little strong on pulls that cover a longer distance.

[Renathras]

...

1) Read the OP again: If you target yourself or a party member (e.g. not an enemy), Holy would be centered on you, the WHM. Meaning you could stand in the middle of the enemy pack while targeting your Tank and spam Holy identically to today. How is this a nerf? It can't be a nerf - 100% or otherwise - since this would retain the exact same functionality as it does today. Want to hit all the adds on Ex5? Target yourself or the Tanks or some other party member - something you might be doing anyway to Heal them. In what way is this a nerf? Again, you're some hotshot raider, aren't you? I'm a Timmy Casual and I can manage this. You aren't more inept at this game than I am. Again, without it, (2) is a no-go. I'd only support (2) if we got (1).

2) It technically wouldn't be 1112. If you look at my example rotation, you see you're often delaying some Glare or Holy as you move around Dia and Afflatus abilities in the rotation. Either way, it's something.

3) Maybe, but as I said, I was just trying to think of something that changed the AOE rotation from "Holy, Holy, Holy....Holy, Holy, Holy......Holy, Holy..." to something else, and as we have Misery right there on our ability list, we might as well use it. I don't really like your idea since it could easily overcap on Blood Lily (if one Dia detonates, it'd detonate them all), and it would make the optimal rotation impossible to determine. There'd be some weird expectation value calculation to determine how many Dia's are optimal to put into a pack given the 10% detonation rate, which would have to be prorated to not count the part of the Dia's expired on average before it goes off. Since it's only a 10% change, it's unclear what the optimal point would be to use Dia or not use Dia on the trash, and if you DIDN'T get a proc, then you'd be hobbling your DPS by casting all those Dias, while if you DID get a proc, then it completely shifts what you're doing as you have to decide how much longer everything will live and do the expectation value calculation again. Collectively...that's kind of insane. Even if Balance puts out a cheat sheet day three, it'll make the slow runs (if you get a WHM that doesn't look up guides) even SLOWER than they are now, like as not, which will probably not be better for the community overall.

There's a reason that RNG is bad and predictability is good sometimes. Especially for a white bread Healer.

[Sebazy]

1) Read the OP again:

Missed that part, sorry! 2 makes more sense with ranged holy as an addition but honestly I still prefer thundercloud procs over such a simple rotation. As for ranged holy that can still be cast on yourself without a target itself, I could take it or leave it. It has it's merits and I can definitely appreciate that hunkering down under the mob stack isn't for everyone. Even with it, I'd still be personally attached at the hip to the tank in dungeon runs though.

Regarding 3, the idea would not be to refresh them after they detonate, but the main focus here is that it just takes the dot damage you've built up as the pack is being positioned (You dot on the run right? If not, you should be), and front loads it all but guaranteeing you a Misery to really get a nice satisfying chunk DPS in a similar way to how DNC front loads so much damage with Technical Step > Standard Step.

I'm not really sure how it makes the optimal rotation impossible to calculate though? The math is really no different to existing multi dotting and is simple to calculate with a timeline.

Lets go with an 6 mob pull. We've detonated our dia bomb and we think the mobs are going to survive long enough to reapply Dia and go for another detonation. The right value is our total potency up to that point refreshing dia on 6 mobs and then holy spamming for a detonate, the middle is our potency just spamming holy, the left is our timeline in seconds. To keep things simple we're going to ignore crits and spell speed to get a feel for how it's going to shape up. As ever, the caveat applies that this is quick off the top of my head math, if there's a fundamental mistake in the sums by all means point it out, but I think it's accurate enough to drive the point home.

2.5 - 900 - 60 - First mob dotted
3.0 - 1800 - 120
5.0 - 2700 - 180 - Second mob dotted
6.0 - 3600 - 300
7.5 - 4500 - 360 - 3rd
9.0 - 5400 - 540
10.0 - 6300 - 600 - 4th
12.0 - 7200 - 840
12.5 - 8100 - 900 - 5th
15.0 - 9000 - 1260 - All 6 are dotted now, the dot tick aligns with the GCD here
17.5 - 9900 - 1410 - If we detonate now, our shortest dot has 5 ticks remaining for 300 potency, the longest has it's full 10 ticks remaining for 600 potency. With 6 dots I make that a total of 2700 potency.

So even if we detonate here, we're miles off the mark multi dotting at this stage vs just mashing Holy. It's not worth going more in-depth because nothing is going to make up that kind of deficit. Really the only optimisation question would be weighing up popping a Lily if you needed to move out of an AoE vs throwing a Dia, but if you're optimising to that level you're either ignoring the AoE outright and just eating it, or using Swiftcast to Holy as you move.

I get that you don't like the idea and this probably isn't going to change a thing in your eyes. But hopefully it clears up the misconception if nothing else.

*Edit* On RNG, I actually disagree, with caveats though

Negative RNG variance in abilities sucks. Going for a button that you expect to use only for it to not be ready/available is a bad time. 4.0 Lilies, Selene haste, AST Lady and the AST haste card are but a few examples of where this has arisen in places.

However, positive RNG where you get more than you were expecting can be great. Go back a few tiers when bosses hit tanks harder and crit heals on said tanks were great, frequently freeing up an entire GCD for more dps. That's why I really want something like Thundercloud for one of the healers, It's literally a sparkling 660 potency proc with an insta cast. You get a juicy number and it breaks up the monotony of DPSing a little by adding in just a touch of RNG with no downsides.

RNG on healers doesn't have to be a bad thing.