Minor Idea: Make Art of War ranged

[Renathras]

WHM and AST have a dichotomy - both have a casted AOE filler spell. WHM's is centered on the WHM, AST's is centered on a given target.

SCH and SGE do not - both of them have a spell that is point blank AOE centered on the caster, that is also instant cast. For those keeping score, they ALSO have the same MP cost (400) and nearly identical Potencies (180 for SCH, 170 for SGE)

ONE OF THEM should probably be a ranged spell.

The reason I say Art of War over Dyskrasia is that SGE is already designed for near-melee range combat. Plgema requires it (6y range), and Pneuma somewhat does (aiming its line AOE through the enemy pack and not being at the end of its range before it hits all enemies), as well as Kerachole being centered on the SGE meaning the SGE needs to be somewhat near the center of the party.

Contrast SCH, which has no other melee range abilities, and unlike SGE, can use Sacred Soil at range as well as any Eos based abilities by using Place with Eos and sending her into the melee on your behalf.

I suppose it doesn't matter which one, but Art is the more logical choice. Give it the old Tri-Disaster little "pew pew pew" lasers that hit an enemy and then make the Art of War 2 ground animation = profit.

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This is a pretty simple suggestion, so I'm curious what the pros/cons are and if anyone would oppose this thing that would make SCH and SGE less same-y or if people kind of like the idea.

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Comparison of Healer spam AOEs: All cost 400 MP and all have a 2.5 sec recast

WHM - Holy 3: 2.5 sec cast, 150 Potency + Stun (4, 2, 1 sec), 0y Range, 8y Radius

AST - Gravity 2: 1.5 sec cast, 130 Potency, 25y Range (targets specific enemy), 5y Radius

SCH - Art of War 2: Instant, 180 Potency, 0y Range, 5y Radius

SGE - Dyskrasia 2: Instant, 170 Potency, 0y Range, 5y Radius, procs Kardia

Note how the latter two of these are effectively identical while the first two, while doing basically the same thing, have clear distinctions between them in the form of cast time, secondary effect (Holy's Stun), range, and radius.

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EDIT:

An alternative suggestion from Nizzi that I kinda like:

Also, if Art of War is being changed to ranged, you may as well just make Ruin II the AoE spell as well and be done with it, at that point you just have "ST Ruin II" and "AoE Ruin II".

Remove Art of War and make Ruin 2 into Ruin 4 (though with lower potency than the SMN version, obviously, and with no CD or anything)?

Meh, I'm down. Sure, let's just do that.

[fulminating]

Miasma 2 was point blank. Also Sage's autos are worse than scholar's. If anything I'd have sage as the one with a ranged aoe, particularly as it revolves around lasers, traditionally not a particularly melee-themed option.

I don't really like the idea though, as it stands, it incentivises standing with all the party members, making aoe heals catch everyone but the most ranged of physical ranged.

[ty_taurus]

Miasma 2 was point blank. Also Sage's autos are worse than scholar's. If anything I'd have sage as the one with a ranged aoe, particularly as it revolves around lasers, traditionally not a particularly melee-themed option.

I don't really like the idea though, as it stands, it incentivises standing with all the party members, making aoe heals catch everyone but the most ranged of physical ranged.

Personally, I'd like to see healer autos either reduced to 1 like BLM or make caster autos ranged with INT/MND scaling. Do we want caster/healer autos to be a thing, or not?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

While I still prefer to see the old Miasma II back, if I'm given a choice to have a ranged or melee AoW I'd rather keep what we have right now. I see no reason to leave melee range when it gives you the best chance to catch all your party members with your AoE heals regardless of your healer choice.

If any, I think it's SGE who should get something different. It's -laser-, why not let them have an 8y frontal-cone/10-12y line AoE instead? Why does everything has to be circle(s)? Imo this subtle difference is just enough to make me remember that I'm playing SGE during trash pulls (standing next to the group of mobs), not a SCH. (trying to plant myself where the tank is)

[Conchoidal]

I've never really liked Art of War being a melee ranged spell, so this would be a welcome change. It could also replace Ruin II (which lost a lot of value in 6.0 and is inconsistent with ACN/SMN's version) and free up some space for future abilities.

[ForsakenRoe]

WHM and AST have a dichotomy - both have a casted AOE filler spell. WHM's is centered on the WHM, AST's is centered on a given target.

SCH and SGE do not - both of them have a spell that is point blank AOE centered on the caster, that is also instant cast. For those keeping score, they ALSO have the same MP cost (400) and nearly identical Potencies (180 for SCH, 170 for SGE)

ONE OF THEM should probably be a ranged spell.

The reason I say Art of War over Dyskrasia is that SGE is already designed for near-melee range combat. Plgema requires it (6y range), and Pneuma somewhat does (aiming its line AOE through the enemy pack and not being at the end of its range before it hits all enemies), as well as Kerachole being centered on the SGE meaning the SGE needs to be somewhat near the center of the party.

Contrast SCH, which has no other melee range abilities, and unlike SGE, can use Sacred Soil at range as well as any Eos based abilities by using Place with Eos and sending her into the melee on your behalf.

Indom/Expedient be like:



Anyway, technically the abberation here is AST. For the same reason as you say 'SGE wants to be melee because of Kerachole' (this also applies to Physis Holos Ixochole Panhaima Pepsis if you ever use it), AST wants to be close for CO, CU, Horoscope, Divination. Just because one of the healers has a skill that lets it do damage from several yards away, does not mean it should BE several yards away. We've got enough issues with BRDs and the like standing in Narnia, we don't need the healers to be in 'the other side of Narnia'

Also Sage's autos are worse than scholar's. If anything I'd have sage as the one with a ranged aoe

I mean, it's already got Toxicon, does it really need a second, spammable one that has the same targetting/damage profile as that? In which case, what is Toxicon's purpose? The damage scaling on Tox (the 50% falloff) makes them almost identical in their damage output, with Tox remaining a tiny amount ahead up until like 11 targets. Might as well just delete Dyskrasia, make Toxicon the AOE spell

Oh wait now Addersting has no purpose. Oh wait, now we've accidentally made Dosis pointless because Tox is equal potency and instant cast meaning even more leeway for doing mechanics. Etc Etc, it's a rabbit hole of stuff that would have to be reworked to fix the issues that the previous skill reworking opened up. And once you've reworked these two points, chances are something else now needs reworking

Personally, I'd like to see healer autos either reduced to 1 like BLM or make caster autos ranged with INT/MND scaling. Do we want caster/healer autos to be a thing, or not?

Make them do 1 or 0 damage, or just disable them entirely. Don't make them scale on INT, if you do you'll have parsehounds trying to find ways to greed melee uptime and potentially causing issues because of it, we don't need the ARR booksmack era back

If any, I think it's SGE who should get something different. It's -laser-, why not let them have an 8y frontal-cone/10-12y line AoE instead? Why does everything has to be circle(s)? Imo this subtle difference is just enough to make me remember that I'm playing SGE during trash pulls (standing next to the group of mobs), not a SCH. (trying to plant myself where the tank is)

It has Dyskrasia (circle on you), Toxicon (circle on enemy), Phlegma (circle on enemy) and I guess Pneuma (line from you to enemy). Whole lot of circles. Why couldn't it be lines? Terminus Est style fire cross in front of you, MCH LB3 style 'point at floor, arc upwards to raze in front of the SGE' style, etc, many options for Line AOE skills when you have 'lasers' as the aesthetic. When I first saw SGE I had a dream, that it's Medica equivalent was a wide Line AOE in the direction it was facing (think Asylum width), so which way you faced was an actual gameplay factor

[Nizzi]

On the one hand, Art of War is a DoTless Miasma II, which was reworked to be like Blizzard II for SCH as that was its spammable AoE option in ARR/HW before those systems were removed in SB, so one could make a solid argument that the foundational of an instant cast PBAoE for healers is very much "SCH's thing" and that SGE should be changed to be ranged, though I guess this would technically be a buff to SGE unless it had a cast time.

However, I despise how Art of War's animation looks so I think they should just return Miasma II instead. Not sure WTF they were thinking giving SCH a "slaps ground with power summoned from hand lmao" was the winning animation, and they made it even less fitting and uglier with Art of War II VFX being ugly too.

tl;dr please SE for the love of god stop adding this high-tech crap to SCH it doesn't fit

[AmiableApkallu]

AST Gravity is your bog-standard casted AoE.

WHM Holy adds to it a powerful secondary effect (stun), but at the cost of a longer cast time and having to move in.

SCH Art of War instead removes the cast time, but at the cost of having to basically be in melee range.

A ranged Art of War would either be a strictly better Gravity (if it has no cast time) or essentially the same as Gravity (if we also add in a cast time). Neither option actually solves anything. I mean, if the goal is to make SCH and SGE less "same-y", that one ability barely scratches the surface; a holistic re-evaluation of their kits is needed.

[ty_taurus]

Make them do 1 or 0 damage, or just disable them entirely. Don't make them scale on INT, if you do you'll have parsehounds trying to find ways to greed melee uptime and potentially causing issues because of it, we don't need the ARR booksmack era back

I did specify making them ranged as well, but yeah, I just think autos are in a weird spot, especially in ARR content since it's actually a pretty significant amount of damage.

[Renathras]

/sigh

Well, I can't say I didn't expect this. XD

SGE being the ranged one would be fine if Plegma was given a 25y range, but that requires more change. SCH having Miasma 2 in the past is irrelevant since it doesn't have it now anyway, and further, by that token we could argue SCH had Shadow Flare FIRST which WAS ranged (and targeted on the ground).

As to needing major reworks for SCH and SGE to be less the same - you have to be willing to start somewhere. If people aren't even willing to have a ranged Art of War, then it's hard to see how they could change the Jobs from top to bottom to be different if you guys give so much pushback against even a minor step in that direction... <_<