2-minute meta

[Absurdity]

This is basically how I see the '2 minute problem' as well. I feel like so much of the discourse is focused on the actual burst window, and not on the rest of a job's rotation, and it's why I do think that standardized raid bursts, and interesting job rotations can coexist. If you are constantly interacting with what makes a job fun to play then the fact that raid buffs/burst have been standardized shouldn't matter. Improving the moment to moment gameplay of a job will solve two problems at once, it will pull complexity, and potency out of raid burst windows. But it's a tough, problem to solve because it needs to be done on a per job basis. There is no 'make jobs fun to play again' button. Solutions for improving WHM's filler rotation will not be appropriate for improving DRK's filler rotation.

Except you can't pull potency out of the burst window. The constraint of the 2-min meta is that every 2-minutes you need to put all of your major potency skills into the 15 second window or you fall massively behind.
Just look at old Paladin, in a vacuum there was actually no problem with it, it was one of the highest dps tanks. But it didn't matter, it's sustained damage playstyle couldn't put enough potency into the buff windows so as soon as you stepped into a group environment it completely fell off a cliff.

This consequently requires everything else to revolve around said window as well, your cooldowns, your resource generation, even your rotational loop in most cases.There are just too many stacking damage modifiers in that current burst window that any job not designed around it can't compete.
There is no interesting rotational variety because every job needs to be able to burst at exactly those windows and fit it all in a comparatively small time frame.

[ForteNightshade]

Except you can't pull potency out of the burst window. The constraint of the 2-min meta is that every 2-minutes you need to put all of your major potency skills into the 15 second window or you fall massively behind.
Just look at old Paladin, in a vacuum there was actually no problem with it, it was one of the highest dps tanks. But it didn't matter, it's sustained damage playstyle couldn't put enough potency into the buff windows so as soon as you stepped into a group environment it completely fell off a cliff.

This consequently requires everything else to revolve around said window as well, your cooldowns, your resource generation, even your rotational loop in most cases.There are just too many stacking damage modifiers in that current burst window that any job not designed around it can't compete.
There is no interesting rotational variety because every job needs to be able to burst at exactly those windows and fit it all in a comparatively small time frame.

A perfect example of this would be the aforementioned Dark Knight where you actually put 1-2 Floods into the minute Trick Attacks as a "resource dump." While hardly revolutionary, it at least added some measure of thought over mindlessly spamming it every two minutes. Dragoon is another example. They specifically talked about adding charges to Spineshatter Dive in response to player feedback about not having a gapcloser. Except due to how the burst meta works, you're always incentivized to hold both charges for the two minute window unless you know for certain it'll cost you a GCD to disengage.

[Aravell]

This is basically how I see the '2 minute problem' as well. I feel like so much of the discourse is focused on the actual burst window, and not on the rest of a job's rotation, and it's why I do think that standardized raid bursts, and interesting job rotations can coexist. If you are constantly interacting with what makes a job fun to play then the fact that raid buffs/burst have been standardized shouldn't matter. Improving the moment to moment gameplay of a job will solve two problems at once, it will pull complexity, and potency out of raid burst windows. But it's a tough, problem to solve because it needs to be done on a per job basis. There is no 'make jobs fun to play again' button. Solutions for improving WHM's filler rotation will not be appropriate for improving DRK's filler rotation.

It's already been proven that the 2 minute burst meta cannot coexist with interesting job rotations, the proof is in pre and post 6.3 PLD, PLD was by far the most unique tank with a burst profile that doesn't follow the 2 minutes timeline. So what did they do with PLD? They reworked it to mash it into the 2 minute framework.

[mallleable]

It's already been proven that the 2 minute burst meta cannot coexist with interesting job rotations, the proof is in pre and post 6.3 PLD, PLD was by far the most unique tank with a burst profile that doesn't follow the 2 minutes timeline. So what did they do with PLD? They reworked it to mash it into the 2 minute framework.

I think we have very different ideas of what constitutes 'interesting,' and what informs job identity. To me the most interesting thing about new PLD is Divine Might which actually integrates PLD's holy spells into its filler rotation. Which to me is way more paladin-y than using a damage up buff to buff a damage over time skill like with old PLD or even more abstracted whether it does sustain or burst damage tank. To me it is more mission critical that PLD is a good lowercase p paladin which means translating concepts like sword play, shield play, protecting allies, and holy magics into job actions than whether or not it does burst or sustain damage. I feel like there is a decent amount of potential for a mechanic like Divine Might.

Except you can't pull potency out of the burst window. The constraint of the 2-min meta is that every 2-minutes you need to put all of your major potency skills into the 15 second window or you fall massively behind.
Just look at old Paladin, in a vacuum there was actually no problem with it, it was one of the highest dps tanks. But it didn't matter, it's sustained damage playstyle couldn't put enough potency into the buff windows so as soon as you stepped into a group environment it completely fell off a cliff.

This consequently requires everything else to revolve around said window as well, your cooldowns, your resource generation, even your rotational loop in most cases.There are just too many stacking damage modifiers in that current burst window that any job not designed around it can't compete.
There is no interesting rotational variety because every job needs to be able to burst at exactly those windows and fit it all in a comparatively small time frame.

Except yeah you can, and it's happed before. Back in Shadowbringers, WAR could do 5 Fell Cleves during Inner Release, and it was on a 90 second cooldown, but it was tough because Inner Release was just a short buff and so the amount of Fell Cleaves one can preform was dependent on GCD speed, and ping. So when it was demanded that its cooldown be reduced to 60 seconds to align with buffs better, and be given a stack treatment it lost 2 uses of Fell Cleave as a result. So it's as simple as the more frequently a skill can be used, the lower its potency/damage potential.

[Supersnow845]

I think we have very different ideas of what constitutes 'interesting,' and what informs job identity. To me the most interesting thing about new PLD is Divine Might which actually integrates PLD's holy spells into its filler rotation. Which to me is way more paladin-y than using a damage up buff to buff a damage over time skill like with old PLD or even more abstracted whether it does sustain or burst damage tank. To me it is more mission critical that PLD is a good lowercase p paladin which means translating concepts like sword play, shield play, protecting allies, and holy magics into job actions than whether or not it does burst or sustain damage. I feel like there is a decent amount of potential for a mechanic like Divine Might.



Except yeah you can, and it's happed before. Back in Shadowbringers, WAR could do 5 Fell Cleves during Inner Release, and it was on a 90 second cooldown, but it was tough because Inner Release was just a short buff and so the amount of Fell Cleaves one can preform was dependent on GCD speed, and ping. So when it was demanded that its cooldown be reduced to 60 seconds to align with buffs better, and be given a stack treatment it lost 2 uses of Fell Cleave as a result. So it's as simple as the more frequently a skill can be used, the lower its potency/damage potential.

But in practice the job just plays like diet gunbreaker, “coat of paint” differences between classes don’t work (as evidenced by the healers), PLD used to be the most unique tank who’s most similar class equivalent was BLM, now it’s just another version of the same class again

And inner release being shorter than the number of fell cleaves doesn’t really apply, you weren’t punished because it was impossible to fit 5 fell cleaves inner release, you were punished if you drifted inner release outside of other party members buffs like technical step or divination

[VentVanitas]

I think we have very different ideas of what constitutes 'interesting,' and what informs job identity. To me the most interesting thing about new PLD is Divine Might which actually integrates PLD's holy spells into its filler rotation. Which to me is way more paladin-y than using a damage up buff to buff a damage over time skill like with old PLD or even more abstracted whether it does sustain or burst damage tank. To me it is more mission critical that PLD is a good lowercase p paladin which means translating concepts like sword play, shield play, protecting allies, and holy magics into job actions than whether or not it does burst or sustain damage. I feel like there is a decent amount of potential for a mechanic like Divine Might.

what potential? Divine Might is a cookie-cutter "1-2-3 get 4" mechanic that literally every tank has. It's Burst Strike, Fell Cleave and Bloodspiller. there's barely anything inherently unique about it or its usage in PLD's rotation other than Holy Spirit being a ranged attack

[Absurdity]

Except yeah you can, and it's happed before. Back in Shadowbringers, WAR could do 5 Fell Cleves during Inner Release, and it was on a 90 second cooldown, but it was tough because Inner Release was just a short buff and so the amount of Fell Cleaves one can preform was dependent on GCD speed, and ping. So when it was demanded that its cooldown be reduced to 60 seconds to align with buffs better, and be given a stack treatment it lost 2 uses of Fell Cleave as a result. So it's as simple as the more frequently a skill can be used, the lower its potency/damage potential.

??? you just confirmed what I said.
They took IR, a 90 second cooldown that did not fit into their new 2-minute meta and therefore put a lot of warrior's potency outside of the new buff window, and turned it into a 60 second cooldown while also reducing it's overall length so you can comfortably get all your big hitters into the 15 second window every 2 minutes.
It was reworked for the new 2-min meta or it would've fallen even further behind than it already did on Endwalker launch.

Inner Release was able to be a 90 second cooldown before exactly because there was no unified 2-minute buff window, you had buffs with 60, 90, 120 and 180 second cooldowns which spread out the party buffs and allowed for jobs with odd burst timings to still be viable.

[Turtledeluxe]

Things that are predictable and routine like the two minute meta are the total opposite of fun but I guess that depends on the person and their own preferences.

[Turtledeluxe]

I'm a big fan of job identity and rotation adjustment, but making healers fun to play (as an example) will not resolve the corrosive effect the Meta has on encounters imo.

I also think job identity is a pipe dream at this point and we have a better shot at fixing the meta and encounters than jobs. I think the team likes what they're doing with jobs and I fully expect DRG rework will nuke whatever hope people have left.

[TBerry]

It's fine, IMO, but base classes and early game content gives kind of more individuality.
ACN, feels a jack-of -all-trades mage, for example. Can DPS, heal, and do an emergency raise if needed.
Plus abilities that are deemed "worthless", have much more use.