2-minute meta

[Supersnow845]

^thats not what they are referring to when they say damage can be pulled out of raid buffs. If you make inner release CD 40 seconds you get more uses out of it but still the use that really matters is the one in the burst window

“Pulling potency out of the burst window” means that skulls that could reasonably be put into the burst window (for example DNC’s feathers) it’s always optimal to put them in the burst window, same as any skill that has a slightly odd CD, it’s always best to save it for the burst window (or skills like phlegma that have 2 charges, you should always be putting 2-3 charges inside the burst window)

If there was a compensation mechanism for damage potentially lost by using skills outside the burst window if you had the skull to utilise it (for example ShB enchanted reprise) then it would add a lot of depth to a lot of classes

[ForsakenRoe]

everyone fuming about PLD feeling like GNB lite because of Divine Might/Burst Strike comparisons, I'm fuming because even after a rework we still have to press Atonement three times in a row

IDK why they couldn't have done, as an example:

Combos are all hard-combos and 4 steps long, to differentiate the PLD from other tanks and to make the combo 10s long
Rotation loop per minute is constructed from 6 of these combos, freeform based on MP management required

Combo 1: Fast Blade - Riot Blade - Royal Authority - Atonement x1. This is the MP restoration combo
Combo 2: Fast Blade - Savage Blade - Goring Blade - Holy Spirit. This is the MP spending combo, with DM Holy Spirit having a bigger potency to feel more bursty
Combo 3: Confiteor - Blade of - Blade of - Blade of. This is the burst window combo used every 60s under FOF

So you'd do Conf, Blade X3, and a HS combo as your 8 GCDs in FOF. Req could have been reworked into a hard hitting GCD (as Goring currently is), which upgrades into Conf (gaining potency and becoming AOE). Req/Conf's effect could have instead been 'reduces MP cost to 0 for 3 spells, and removes cast time', allowing for Req - HS x3 as your 'lower level' burst window, while also allowing for 3x instant Clemencies if that is required for some reason. Then the gameplay would be a 'build your rotation' style, constructing a 60s loop from these 'building blocks' as required by the fight. The optimization and depth this would allow for, would come from the fact that during downtimes, MP continues to replenish, so if you know you're going into a downtime (or you're definitely going to die and get LB3'd back up, cough Magic Number), you can purposely dump Holy Spirits more, by swapping out some Royal Auth combos and replacing them with Holy Spirit combos, to take advantage of the extra MP coming in.

IDK I've not thought much about the potencies, but I'd argue something like this would be a bit more interesting, compared to what we have now where Snoring Blade is functionally identical to Sonic Break, and we have to smash Atonement 3 times in a row. You could even swap one of the combos to not start with Fast Blade, but instead start with Shield Bash, such that it can still be spammed for it's stun effect (deep dungeons etc), but it also sees use in the actual rotation instead of being a bit of a meme button

[Aravell]

everyone fuming about PLD feeling like GNB lite because of Divine Might/Burst Strike comparisons, I'm fuming because even after a rework we still have to press Atonement three times in a row

I'm more fuming that I lost my spreadsheet healer in 5.0, then they took away my spreadsheet tank in 6.3.

[Rithy255]

2 Minute meta is a issue for sure, but it's funny to me how it's like the "biggest issue!!" to job design when Job design is generally just not in a good state, which isn't all caused by 2 minute meta.

I think the Main issue with the game is that job design especially for support jobs such as Tanks & Healers is just really really bland and this isn't fully due to the 2 minute meta, it's a part of the safe design that was introduced In shadowbringers (at a way lower extent, looking back on it SHB design was miles more interesting for most jobs, even small things like healer cast times were a thing that made jobs feel different) the problem with the game is that it won't allow for Jobs to have "upsides" & "downsides" every job (Even the utility based ones) just have the same function with the only room for difference being rotation, you know what? I'd be perfectly fine with that If tanks actually had fun rotations instead of the snoozefest...

In reality all we can hope for is either more of the same we've been getting in EW aka only focusing on the fight design (which hurts the replay value on said design as taking a different job gave a slightly different experience but now it really doesn't) or a restructure of the combat system for all jobs, tanks and healers most importantly.

I do think the reason why 2 minute meta is so discussed is because we have something that also effects DPS players heavily. (It effects tanks as well... healers a small amount I guess), but 2 minute meta is generally seen as very bad because now the rotations are getting trimmed, the combat is merging into this general samey feeling, throughout the roles it takes even more depth out of the game when it was already in need of depth in Job design. Don't get me wrong I dislike the 2 minute meta but removing it wouldn't suddenly make the game feel that much better for me, someone who doesn't always just want to play DPS, or boring blue DPS, One button green DPS.

The question that really needs to be asked is... is it ok for the game to be slightly more unbalanced for the sake of fun and creativity? which I'd say I'd prefer, both aren't mutually exclusive but the reason why we get this sort of safe... boring job design is because it's way easier to balance. Personally I think it's fine that Tanks like DRK would do slightly more damage but have less sustain, I think it's fine that tanks like PLD have a more complicated rotation (I feel like PLD's issue was it didn't really offer much pre 6.3) the Issue is that this game tends to only buff a jobs weaknesses instead of making it's strengths stand out more and be more useful if the job is falling behind... in certain cases yes you should buff weaknesses but to a certain point tuning numbers that way will lead to one job falling behind after that buff, it becomes a cycle of choosing which tank does the higher damage number now, because all the kits are very similar.

[ShadowNyx3]

The reality is that there’s too many jobs in the game. But new jobs are always going to be added because new jobs sell expansions.

With each new job, more work is created for the job design team/s. To offset this new workload, the company can either a) hire more people b) consolidate job design into a simpler system.

With the direction we have seen job design going for years now, I think it’s pretty clear what the company is choosing to do.

So, truthfully the real problem isn’t that there’s too many jobs, it’s that this game is made by a massive corporation. I’m sure that many, many developers would love to put passion into the job design again, but their hands will always be tied by the direction they get from management.

[Supersnow845]

The reality is that there’s too many jobs in the game. But new jobs are always going to be added because new jobs sell expansions.

With each new job, more work is created for the job design team/s. To offset this new workload, the company can either a) hire more people b) consolidate job design into a simpler system.

With the direction we have seen job design going for years now, I think it’s pretty clear what the company is choosing to do.

So, truthfully the real problem isn’t that there’s too many jobs, it’s that this game is made by a massive corporation. I’m sure that many, many developers would love to put passion into the job design again, but their hands will always be tied by the direction they get from management.

The problem with this is that it is massively unequally balanced in passion for design

If we go by the old interview that said there was only 5 designers it feels like BLM gets 2 of them to itself, the melees get one to themselves, the tanks get one, the rest of the ranged DPS and casters share the 5th even though he is a melee main and the healers get the unpaid intern who spends the day smoking weed out by the dumpster

I feel like they could make it work a lot better even with 5 if the designers actually designed jobs they liked but nobody seems to like any non melee class except BLM

[ShadowNyx3]

The problem with this is that it is massively unequally balanced in passion for design

If we go by the old interview that said there was only 5 designers it feels like BLM gets 2 of them to itself, the melees get one to themselves, the tanks get one, the rest of the ranged DPS and casters share the 5th even though he is a melee main and the healers get the unpaid intern who spends the day smoking weed out by the dumpster

I feel like they could make it work a lot better even with 5 if the designers actually designed jobs they liked but nobody seems to like any non melee class except BLM

If only these 5 human beings could design and balance 21 unique jobs while perfectly distributing their passion to only the jobs they like, as well as collaborating with each other on the larger combat system and dictating the limits to the encounter designers!

[GoatOfWar]

The reality is that there’s too many jobs in the game. But new jobs are always going to be added because new jobs sell expansions.

With each new job, more work is created for the job design team/s. To offset this new workload, the company can either a) hire more people b) consolidate job design into a simpler system.

With the direction we have seen job design going for years now, I think it’s pretty clear what the company is choosing to do.

So, truthfully the real problem isn’t that there’s too many jobs, it’s that this game is made by a massive corporation. I’m sure that many, many developers would love to put passion into the job design again, but their hands will always be tied by the direction they get from management.

And yet, there is still blatant favouritism within their overhomogenisation. *Points at WAR, Sam and BLM*

[ForsakenRoe]

And yet, there is still blatant favouritism within their overhomogenisation. *Points at WAR, Sam and BLM*

If there was any favouritism for SAM on the dev team, I can't see it. I can't see how an actual SAM player would think 'yeh you know what we should do? Remove all of the kenki management aspects of the class like Seigan or Kaiten, so that the gauge is only used on the crappy filler 'use this to prevent overcap' button'. I guess the gapclosers are 10, but they're the same potency/kenki ratio as Shinten, so which one you use isn't actually that much of a 'choice', moreso a case of 'I don't have enough gauge to Shinten, but raidbuffs are about to expire, I'll just gapclose instead'. But seriously, Senei costs 25, Ikishoten gives 50, and both are 2min CDs, it is almost impossible to screw yourself into a situation of 'oops I don't have enough kenki for Senei' unless you Iki and immediately press Shinten twice for some reason. At this point, I'd rather they changed Senei from 'costs 25' to 'gives 25' and delete Ikishoten. Same Kenki generation overall (as after Senei you're left with +25), but it removes a button we don't really need, and that means space for a button that actually has an impact on our gameplay beyond 'hit it once per 2min lol'. Well, that's assuming they'd actually add such a button. chances are they'd delete Iki, and replace it with nothing, or worse, Shoha III

True on WAR though, take me back to 4.1 SB where it felt rewarding to set up and execute the burst window, should have left the 'press 60s CD, receive X stacks of 'free big hit button' to PLD with Req/Holy Spirit

[Lyth]

...

I think that it's human nature to seek out the biggest reward for the least amount of effort. People like to be seen to complain about reductions in job complexity, but they will genuinely complain about reductions in job efficacy. SAM is the most represented DPS in raid content (even pulling ahead of SMN), fairly consistently has the best rDPS and aDPS offerings, and has one of the most straightforward gameplay loops. I don't think that that's a coincidence.

You will definitely see the complaints on SAM swing in the exact opposite direction if VPR is released with a strictly selfish design. Suddenly SAM will instantly be described as the hardest job in the universe and its players will demand buffs to offset this.

BLM is in a bit of a strange spot because while it gets royal treatment amongst casters, the player numbers don't really reflect this. I don't think it's necessarily a mechanical execution issue; after all, it has the lowest APM out of any job in the game. It probably has to more do with the fact that BLM plays very differently from the rest from a planning standpoint and isn't as transferrable of a skillset. It'll be interesting to see how PCM impacts this space, although it would likely be more disruptive if it wasn't a buff provider.

WAR is unlikely to budge until they get around to releasing a hammer tank.