More in-depth tutorials for PvE job & PvP: yay or nay?

[Wawaya]

I've noticed that the RPR and SGE questlines try to explain the basic of their jobs better than the previous jobs questlines. If I remember correctly, SGE explain the utility of Kardia, shields... And RPR teaches about the importance of positionals, AoE, and Soul Gauge (I'm not sure if they talked about Death's Design.) I thought it was great! I still think they should explain other spells/ abilities/weaponskills... more in depth as well, but it's a great start!
I know the game gives advices whenever you unlock your Job Gauge, but I think having to play, and having NPCs telling you what you should do directly is better for people who are unfamiliar with the game

I don't recall anything like that in the previous and older jobs questlines- it seems to be more RP-ey and letting the player figuring out by themselves. Do you think it'd be a great idea to have what they did with RPR and SGE, but with the older jobs?

As for PvP, I've noticed a lot of people seems to be lost with Crystalline Conflict and Frontlines objectives. It's true that there are NPCs in Wolves' Den Pier that explain everything you need to know in these modes. But I feel like not a lot of people knows about it, and that's totally understandable. I've been wondering- would'nt it be interesting to have a fake match, with bots- akin to the Lord of Verminion tutorials (without having a gargantuan amount of tutorials.....)- to learn the basics? It would be required before playing with real players

This is not a troll post, hate post or anything, this is genuinesely something I was thinking, as I've noticed more people having trouble figuring out the core ability of their jobs.
I'd like to know what you guys are thinking, is it a good idea, or would it make feels like the game is holding the hand of the player too much?

[TaleraRistain]

I think when they're done with Duty Support if possible it would be fantastic to go back and redo some of the Job Quests a bit to have those solo instances that serve as tutorials. I loved both SGE and RPR for that.

[SargeTheSeagull]

Yay 100%. At the absolute least they need to update hall of the novice. I mean the DPS HOTN teaches about accuracy. Ya know, that stat that was removed 6 years ago.

[MistakeNot]

Yay 100%. At the absolute least they need to update hall of the novice. I mean the DPS HOTN teaches about accuracy. Ya know, that stat that was removed 6 years ago.

It does? I don't remember Hall of the Novice ever saying anything at all about Accuracy. Or any other of our stats for that matter.

[Renalt]

Been replaying the game on an alt and I'm at the 50 of Ninja and the tutorial of it is OK...till 45. When you unlock your final mudra ( which opens up a large chunk of your mudra abilities ) they are like ok it does this, this, and this OK LET'S GOOOO!

The ones before it they put you in a training scenario to actually use them.

[NekoMataMata]

Been replaying the game on an alt and I'm at the 50 of Ninja and the tutorial of it is OK...till 45. When you unlock your final mudra ( which opens up a large chunk of your mudra abilities ) they are like ok it does this, this, and this OK LET'S GOOOO!

The ones before it they put you in a training scenario to actually use them.

Yeah, the Ninja questline literally has you hit dummies your new abilities at the beginning.

The bit before the last couple of quests was more so due to Oboro rushing you in the story to prepare you for the upcoming fights. It's still better than hitting training dummies.

Anyways, as for the OP... I don't really see the benefit. It won't help most people unless you're going to handhold them through every detail of their job's abilities/skills.

They could update some of the job quest dialogue though. Some job quests make mention to old abilities/skills that were removed.

[Jeeqbit]

Class and Job Quests have always done this. The conjurer quests teach you about Cure, the Astrologian quests teach you about cards and there are many jobs that require you to attack things with certain attacks. All the Heavensward job quests tried to explain the new abilities in the lore and designed the quest around the ability, so that it makes sense why you learn that ability from it. Eventually, SE became tired of the effort required to design story around abilities, especially with the 20 jobs we have now and how most people put off alt job quests until max level anyway.

Many of the abilities that you learn in these quests have changed a lot over the years or even been removed, requiring a quest change. SE doesn't want to keep updating old content because it is important to focus on the new content which makes players resubscribe. And that is why they can't make Hall of the Novice more sophisticated.

I do want to point out that the role quests involve using your abilities though. I had to actually heal on a healer and the NPCs nearly died if I just tried to DPS like in dungeons, I had to actually use interrupt on a tank, I had to actually do mechanics on a DPS instead of falling asleep.

People have always been clueless in PvP. Nothing is going to make them not clueless unless it doesn't have objectives. Killing the enemy is an obvious task. Objectives usually are not obvious enough.

[Wawaya]

Class and Job Quests have always done this. The conjurer quests teach you about Cure, the Astrologian quests teach you about cards and there are many jobs that require you to attack things with certain attacks. All the Heavensward job quests tried to explain the new abilities in the lore and designed the quest around the ability, so that it makes sense why you learn that ability from it. Eventually, SE became tired of the effort required to design story around abilities, especially with the 20 jobs we have now and how most people put off alt job quests until max level anyway.

Many of the abilities that you learn in these quests have changed a lot over the years or even been removed, requiring a quest change. SE doesn't want to keep updating old content because it is important to focus on the new content which makes players resubscribe. And that is why they can't make Hall of the Novice more sophisticated.

I do want to point out that the role quests involve using your abilities though. I had to actually heal on a healer and the NPCs nearly died if I just tried to DPS like in dungeons, I had to actually use interrupt on a tank, I had to actually do mechanics on a DPS instead of falling asleep.

People have always been clueless in PvP. Nothing is going to make them not clueless unless it doesn't have objectives. Killing the enemy is an obvious task. Objectives usually are not obvious enough.

That's why I was thinking about something more in depth, like those RPR and SGE quests. I feel like they try to explain the jobs better than the previous questlines. It's true some quests tells you to hit things with certains actions, I remember NIN doing this. But I feel like having to play in an solo Duty, and having the game telling you to hit more of your buttons, multiple times, to progress was rather nice, but it might be a personal preference!

As for PvP...I don't really agree, let's take Crystalline Conflict for example: Pushing the crystal is the only way to win. However, I've seen plenty of people being frustrated because their teammates would be more focused on killing the enemies rather than pushing the crystal, because like you said, killing enemies is an obvious objective. That's why I think, a match with bots to learn the basics and telling the player 'the main objective is pushing the crystal!' might solve these problems..But I might be too optimistic...?

I know the game resources and dev time is limited, it was only something I was thinking about!

[Jeeqbit]

As for PvP...I don't really agree, let's take Crystalline Conflict for example: Pushing the crystal is the only way to win. However, I've seen plenty of people being frustrated because their teammates would be more focused on killing the enemies rather than pushing the crystal, because like you said, killing enemies is an obvious objective. That's why I think, a match with bots to learn the basics and telling the player 'the main objective is pushing the crystal!' might solve these problems..But I might be too optimistic...?

The Feast was the most direct PvP I remember, because you actually just had to kill the other team and collect their medals. That's it. Crystalline Conflict replaced it, and although there is an objective, killing the other team is part of achieving it because if you don't, they will prevent you completing the objective.

The problem with The Feast was that it was not as popular as Crystalline Conflict. One of the problems was that it required 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 DPS per team (8 people) and certain roles are notoriously rare in games like this (tanks and healers). The other problem was that the healer would keep everyone alive on either team for 10 minutes or more, until finally a death happened. If you were very lucky, then the healer was new and the match was over in a few seconds. Now it's capped at 5 minutes with occasional overtime. The other problem with The Feast was actually the reward structure, where only the top 100 got them, making a person think that since they won't be in the top 100, what is the point in doing this?

Crystalline Conflict is not otherwise much different than The Feast, yet oddly people's perception of PvP transformed from "PvP isn't good in this game" to "PvP has been overhauled and is really good now" because of the rebrand alone.

[Turnintino]

Crystalline Conflict is not otherwise much different than The Feast, yet oddly people's perception of PvP transformed from "PvP isn't good in this game" to "PvP has been overhauled and is really good now" because of the rebrand alone.

I think it's down to nothing more than accessibility. What changes they made to the format just made the mode feel more accessible to the average player, and arguably more worth the effort, since the primary incentive is generally the rewards.

That said, I'd started playing just a few months before the overhaul dropped, and most of my PvP friends hated the change. I had to hear them complain about it for months lol. Meanwhile, as someone who doesn't particularly enjoy PvP either way, I felt the changes made my experience feel a lot more streamlined/intuitive. And CC itself just being a lot more bite-sized in both scale and time limit goes a long way too, as you said.