Roulette incentives backwards?

[Deo14]

Also, I think it would be good if jaded and veteran players didn't play low-level dungeons if they didn't want to. It's a game. You shouldn't play old content if you don't want to play old content, despite rewards. Really, with Duty Support, it doesn't make sense to have players that don't want to be there play that content.

I'm basically arguing that the existing rewards from roulettes should go to activities that veteran players want to play. If they don't want to play old dungeons, they shouldn't have to get a bit more exp or tomes. Honestly, I think square is already thinking in this direction.

Veterans players need to do lower level stuff, otherwise new players will have 30min+ queues for everything. If your argument is that they can use Trust, then keep in mind this is still MMORPG game. If you want to be left alone, with no responsibilities and your own pace, you shouldn't be playing MMORPG at all, or any team-based online games for that matter.

There is tons of issues with the game, but this ain't one of them. Nerfing roulettes will force newbs to have Trust not as a choice, but as something mandatory. That will effectively make game single player from level 1 to 89.

In fact, I would argue that roulettes should be encouraged more and reworked, so optional content like 50/60/70/80 dungeons, HW/SB/ShB AR and so on, becomes doable without 30 min queues. This and less dreadful level sync.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

If roulettes didn't offer the same rewards--maybe even no exp or item rewards--I think queue times still wouldn't be too bad. Many players, myself included, just like to have a pleasant experience with other players--even if it means that we clear a dungeon in 22 minutes instead of 18 minutes.

MSQ roulette before it got its massive rewards already proves this statement false. The roulette was basically dead because the roulette gave such pitiful exp & tomes even when speedrunning that to most people, it wasn't even worth the effort. They had to mega buff the rewards while simultaneously prevent cutscene skipping to incentivize people to queue for it. Or take the ongoing issue of people intentionally lowering their ilvl in order to get CT in their roulettes because the other alliance roulette instances take far longer than CT because of the fact the worth vs reward is so heavily skewed on CT.

The simple reality is that roulettes are what keeps the queues populated -Anything that is even remotely outdated like old raid tier normals would become nearly impossible to get into without full premades due to the fact they are primarily filled by people from trials roulette - and without rewards to incentivize the roulette, all those instances would effectively be dead. People very rarely go into old content to help people for the warm and fuzzies, they go back there for their own player progression, whether it be EXP, tomes, etc - its human nature by large. And without those rewards from the roulette, going into a roulette and getting anything but the latest dungeon you have unlocked would be a waste of time for any person trying to level.

When you enter the DF, you are agreeing to deal with the hand the game throws at you, whether thats a full group of speedrunners or 3/4 people wanting a snail's pace run. If either side wants to guarantee a run of a certain length, they should go make their own premade before entering; otherwise you go with the majority decision.

[Zeastria]

Most people want to finish a dung fast..so they can que the next or get on with other stuff..

[Atelier-Bagur]

I mean thats kinda of a case with MMOs that have daily random content filtering for rewards. Currently playing WoW Dragonflight and Ive been spamming Dungeon roulettes and many of the parties just go for the quickest route (despite the dungeon design is slightly more open-ended than FFXIV's case). So in that sense, those players also dont much care for the dungeon experience and only for the rewards. I think thats fine I suppose, as long as the combat is still fun which it totally is in WoW, compared to FFXIV.

[R041]

I mean thats kinda of a case with MMOs that have daily random content filtering for rewards. Currently playing WoW Dragonflight and Ive been spamming Dungeon roulettes and many of the parties just go for the quickest route (despite the dungeon design is slightly more open-ended than FFXIV's case). So in that sense, those players also dont much care for the dungeon experience and only for the rewards. I think thats fine I suppose, as long as the combat is still fun which it totally is in WoW, compared to FFXIV.

My experience with this has been that WoW, even while trying to optimize a dungeon to it's fullest - Still allows failure and inconsistencies. Where in XIV, you've already optimized it fully before running it.

The CHANCE of failure makes it more alluring. Also not every tank runs the same exact route, and different dungeon tiers will determine different routes and strategies for that same dungeon.

[Atelier-Bagur]

My experience with this has been that WoW, even while trying to optimize a dungeon to it's fullest - Still allows failure and inconsistencies. Where in XIV, you've already optimized it fully before running it.

The CHANCE of failure makes it more alluring. Also not every tank runs the same exact route, and different dungeon tiers will determine different routes and strategies for that same dungeon.

so far with many of the same dungeons I have run, most of the tanks and players take the same route and skip some of the bosses. But your'e right that because of how mobs and paths are structured, the dungeon run still feels more appealing than the linearity of FFXIV design.

[R041]

so far with many of the same dungeons I have run, most of the tanks and players take the same route and skip some of the bosses. But your'e right that because of how mobs and paths are structured, the dungeon run still feels more appealing than the linearity of FFXIV design.

Some of the optimization need precision, and there's still a lot of opportunity to fail. Like "Okay, we gotta walk along this cliff side, don't fall down, don't move left" - You fall down? You were too slow and the pack wandered into you? Well, now it's a shitstorm of chaos. lol

It's not just this game. Everyone wants to do the thing and do it fast. Back in my WoW days people rejoiced if there was a tank that could multi pull and live. Those dungeons could last an hour if not longer sometimes or people would get to a part they would keep failing and then quit.

Back in my City of Heroes days we would get Stone tanks teleporting around and gathering up mobs and then run around a corner and then the entire group would nuke the mobs the second they arrived.

You're missing the point. LET THEM TRY. It's fine. The ATTEMPT to optimize is FUN. As soon as you optimize for me? I no longer have fun.

You make my rotation for me? Not fun.
You decide my route? Not fun

It's like if Sonic becomes linear and there's no way to fail - You just press forward the whole time to finish the map. It's just not fun.

[Renalt]

It's not just this game. Everyone wants to do the thing and do it fast. Back in my WoW days people rejoiced if there was a tank that could multi pull and live. Those dungeons could last an hour if not longer sometimes or people would get to a part they would keep failing and then quit.

Back in my City of Heroes days we would get Stone tanks teleporting around and gathering up mobs and then run around a corner and then the entire group would nuke the mobs the second they arrived.

[Stormpeaks]

WoW dungeons and raids are basically entirely different than FFXIV's, and in all honesty as much as I dont play it much anymore (I played it like 14 years or so), WoW is far superior in both aspects

WoW dungeons are decently hard, at least when it's recent content until you outgear it completely after a while, which is fair, but it still keeps a tiny bit of difficulty, lets not forget M+ which is amazing and makes the dungeon stay up to date, makes them harder and repeatable, with changing affixes regularly and also higher rewards based on the m+ rank you do.

On the other hand, FFXIV's dungeons are an absolute bore, there is no danger whatsoever, it's the same 2 or 3 packs before the boss, then boss, then packs, then boss, with nothing new at all, in a hallway type style. The only dungeon content you get once you are at max level is boring deep dungeons and the likes, in an extremely tiny amount because barely anyone does them, its ignored by most of the community, and aside from those, there's roulettes, which you have a good % chance you'll end up on 2 spells available because you are tuned down in levels so low that you have barely any spells left, but apparently that's "fun" and "entertaining"

WoW's raids are similar to alliance raid, WoW raids feel good to step a foot into, the scenery is usually amazing, Black Foundry is a good example of a nice looking raid, or even Black Temple, or multiple other things, the first time you step into it, you're kind of amazed by the scenery most of the time, same for alliance raids, the areas are nice.

However "normal" raids and even savage are basically glorified trials, you step into a room, you kill the boss with a few mechanics (harder on savage) and then you leave.

Both games really are very far apart in that regard, and not for the good in regards to FFXIV

[Atelier-Bagur]

WoW dungeons and raids are basically entirely different than FFXIV's, and in all honesty as much as I dont play it much anymore (I played it like 14 years or so), WoW is far superior in both aspects

WoW dungeons are decently hard, at least when it's recent content until you outgear it completely after a while, which is fair, but it still keeps a tiny bit of difficulty, lets not forget M+ which is amazing and makes the dungeon stay up to date, makes them harder and repeatable, with changing affixes regularly and also higher rewards based on the m+ rank you do.

On the other hand, FFXIV's dungeons are an absolute bore, there is no danger whatsoever, it's the same 2 or 3 packs before the boss, then boss, then packs, then boss, with nothing new at all, in a hallway type style. The only dungeon content you get once you are at max level is boring deep dungeons and the likes, in an extremely tiny amount because barely anyone does them, its ignored by most of the community, and aside from those, there's roulettes, which you have a good % chance you'll end up on 2 spells available because you are tuned down in levels so low that you have barely any spells left, but apparently that's "fun" and "entertaining"

WoW's raids are similar to alliance raid, WoW raids feel good to step a foot into, the scenery is usually amazing, Black Foundry is a good example of a nice looking raid, or even Black Temple, or multiple other things, the first time you step into it, you're kind of amazed by the scenery most of the time, same for alliance raids, the areas are nice.

However "normal" raids and even savage are basically glorified trials, you step into a room, you kill the boss with a few mechanics (harder on savage) and then you leave.

Both games really are very far apart in that regard, and not for the good in regards to FFXIV

The dungeon and raiding aspect of WoW absolutely blows FFXIV's design away. I understand why its done this way because they want to continue to make this game be the most casual friendly MMO in the market so everything is streamlined but I feel this comes at a cost. Heck the current WoW dungeons and raids are very streamlined and simple compared to the labyrinths of its heyday predecessors but even then it still manages to be just deep enough where it "feels" fun to run through compared to the monotony of FFXIV's dungeons and alliance raids.

I reeeeally wish they stop with the singular linear and narrow path layout of these dungeons. We criticized FFXIII for doing this, yet I dont see this being such a backlash by the general public in FFXIV? If you're going to make the paths linear AT LEAST make the rooms bigger and somewhat explorable with loads of mobs here and there to encourage various pull routes. Heck even have some of the dungeon bosses being able to be done somewhat out of order. Literally anything to break up the monotony.