So why are the crafter relics.. bad.

[Atelier-Bagur]

No, it is based largely on the idea that multiple approaches to gearing should be encouraged and that people shouldn't really be complaining when relics are known to be a progressive system. Now, if you were to make a similar thread on the practicality of scrip then I would have a lot to say that conforms to this principle. Just happens that the scrip is not relevant to this conversation. I would most especially have a lot more to say on the system as a whole, would it be that people made worthwhile threads on the matter?

Furthermore, as I have stated the relics have displayed no worthwhile grind behind them to warrant such a reward. If people want a tool that is better then the grind should be much more substantial to boot. In most use cases you simply won't see a measurable benefit with such small stat gains, which is why I put down the idea because I view the premise as being flawed. Craftsmanship whilst being lower or higher, if the craft is still synthesized within the same # of steps, then that additional craftsmanship is irrelevant. The same applies to the control stat, if the quality is reached regardless of whether you have, say, 4057 or 3997 control, then anything between that bracket is not really relevant.

It's asinine that I think what, precisely? - They are 'brain-dead' recipes. They are recipes that barely equate to the difficulty seen in Pactmaker recipes, similarly, these said recipes can also be completed in i560 gear. They require no form of investment whatsoever. Do you think otherwise?

Newsflash, all progression in this game is meaningless anyway in the long term scheme of things. Just like with hardcore raids, its extremely easily accessible to do every savage content because the min ilv is so obtainable with crafted gear. The only reward for getting BiS is to do Ultimate. Guess where we see this design? Oh yeah crafters/gatherers, so you know what youre right in this regard because besides Expert Recipes, you really dont need the relic if you dont already have Indigator/pentameld.


However where your argument is flawed is that youre pushing on the concept that every player uses crafting macros for guarantee HQ recipes and this isnt true. Getting those macros to work requires both BiS, food and pentameld materia. So the relic tool being just as good as base indigator but also being easily upgradable to be better down the next few patches means that the relic and its bonuses will be worth it for hardcore and casual crafters. Actually stop and think for second rather than looking this shit at its base surface.


Plus its content that has something people can do, which is the whole point of an MMO based on progression anyway.

[Kaurhz]

snipping.

Oh really? I never would have known in my 8+ years of playing, thank you for such an eye-opening and informative statement. (/s) - Regardless of whether the progression is rendered moot in the long-term scheme of things, this does not matter nor does it detract from the satisfaction that one might have in achieving an objective, this has by far got to be one of the most reductive arguments I've quite possibly seen in a while, most especially when you don't seem to take the common courtesy of reading the post.

The argument was never whether these were needed, just whether the reward and the requirement therein would match, most especially for something that is known to be a relic and for a tool that people claim should be better than Indagator. If such should be the case then it needs either a more progressed system wherein the tool rewarded matches the grind required or a more upfront grind. The keyword in this paragraph is better, by the way.

No, my argument is not built on the assumption that every player uses macro crafts. It is built on the fact that absolutely everyone can craft the recipes required for the relic with drastically under-tuned stats that otherwise wouldn't be possible with even Pactmaker, or the more appropriate Indagator gear, so in this sense, they should not exceed that of pentamelded Indagator (just yet). If you feel insistent that this is not the case then I am more than happy to provide you with some evidence showing that it is otherwise possible without BiS, or pentameld.

Furthermore, I never disputed otherwise. My only dispute with respect to this was that if people wish for a tool that is measurably better than Indagator gear then more effort should be required to obtain such, either through an iterative/progressive system or through a more outright stringent grind to do so. Not that people should not have the tool in the first place. So how about you stop, read the posts, and then think, re-read them again, and then think, then reply in the future?

[Atelier-Bagur]

Oh really? I never would have known in my 8+ years of playing, thank you for such an eye-opening and informative statement. (/s) - Regardless of whether the progression is rendered moot in the long-term scheme of things, this does not matter nor does it detract from the satisfaction that one might have in achieving an objective, this has by far got to be one of the most reductive arguments I've quite possibly seen in a while, most especially when you don't seem to take the common courtesy of reading the post.

The argument was never whether these were needed, just whether the reward and the requirement therein would match, most especially for something that is known to be a relic. At the very least a better tool than pentamelded, that is what a progressive system is meant to be, which is what the relic system is at its core.

No, my argument is not built on the assumption that every player uses macro crafts. It is built on the fact that absolutely everyone can craft the recipes required for the relic with drastically under-tuned stats that otherwise wouldn't be possible with even Pactmaker, or the more appropriate Indagator gear. If you feel insistent that this is not the case then I am more than happy to provide you with some evidence showing that it is otherwise possible without BiS, or pentameld.

Furthermore, I never disputed otherwise. My only dispute with respect to this was that if people wish for a tool that is measurably better than Indagator gear then more effort should be required to obtain such, either through an iterative/progressive system or through a more outright stringent grind to do so. Not that people should not have the tool in the first place. So how about you stop, read the posts, and then think, re-read them again, and then think, then reply in the future?

You once again fail horribly at making any actual sense in your arguments. Time and time again, people have pointed out the point of relics as a means for catch up progression for the general audience, which is the entire point. It's the same thing with how weapon relics are handled, except in this case probably a lot more useful considering weapon upgrades are dropped within every patch while crafter/gatherer upgrades get dropped every other patch. With Indigator being the last set we get till 7.0 and guess how many patches we have left before then? You also fail to realize we'll be getting more recipes later with bigger demands in craft and quality demands. By next patch, Indigator tools will be worthless since the relics will exceed its stats and have better bonuses.

Seriously cant wait to see you make a fool of yourself again by 6.4 when you'll obviously make another thread like this still trying to defend this point.

[DiaDeem]

My only dispute with respect to this was that if people wish for a tool that is measurably better than Indagator gear then more effort should be required to obtain such

If it's anything like the Skybuilder Tools, the final step will require a Master Recipe. That's why I never finished my Needle, because I just didn't have the gear/skill for it. Even then, someone had to make me a custom macro to finish the Level 500 tool. I think I was on Blue Gear at the time?... Which I think we'll still get a set of in EW, though only Left side (no accesories), and won't be as good as a Penta'd Indagator set.

Point in case: These are gonna get harder and harder to make.

[Kaurhz]

If it's anything like the Skybuilder Tools, the final step will require a Master Recipe. That's why I never finished my Needle, because I just didn't have the gear/skill for it. Even then, someone had to make me a custom macro to finish the Level 500 tool. I think I was on Blue Gear at the time?... Which I think we'll still get a set of in EW, though only Left side (no accesories), and won't be as good as a Penta'd Indagator set.

Point in case: These are gonna get harder and harder to make.

Yeah, that is usually the case, the relics were designed in a way that would allow you to craft them with relatively low entry point stats, with the aim of eventually progressing towards an i510 relic which was released with 5.45, so we're likely to see the conclusion with the Crystalline tools occur with 6.45, which will allow them to also release the next set of blessed/resplendent tools with 6.55. I would expect the subsequent stages to use expert recipes in some form or fashion.

That much is granted, and this is a system I agree with. Progressive wherein you eventually get a tool 'exceeding', as opposed to just outright exceeding upon the first stage. with an equal difficulty progression system to accommodate.

You once again fail horribly at making any actual sense in your arguments. Time and time again, people have pointed out the point of relics as a means for catch up progression for the general audience, which is the entire point. It's the same thing with how weapon relics are handled, except in this case probably a lot more useful considering weapon upgrades are dropped within every patch while crafter/gatherer upgrades get dropped every other patch. With Indigator being the last set we get till 7.0 and guess how many patches we have left before then? You also fail to realize we'll be getting more recipes later with bigger demands in craft and quality demands. By next patch, Indigator tools will be worthless since the relics will exceed its stats and have better bonuses.

Seriously cant wait to see you make a fool of yourself again by 6.4 when you'll obviously make another thread like this still trying to defend this point.

I have never disputed that they aren't, my only dispute, again, is that tools exceeding Indagator need more of a progression behind them before they are better either through subsequent steps, e.g., a progressive system, something which I have iterated several times to be the case. I have never said that the tools aren't viewed as catch-up nor progression for the general audience just that the difficulty of them would not match what should be expected of something to exceed pentamelded gear.

If multiple sentences are difficult for you, which they seem to be... - I think the relic system is fine as is, however, I think it is too early and the requirements don't necessarily appropriately match the reward, currently to provide tools that exceed the current crafted with pentamelds.

FYI you're incorrect regarding Indagator being the final set we get between now and 7.0, .4 patches have always included a scrip counterpart which has historically been the catch-up gear, and the gear that also branches people between expansions on a budget. This gear will also most likely be 630.

I personally can't wait to see what a fool of yourself when you come to the realization that:
1 - I and the person who started this thread are not the same people, and I disagreed with their underlying point.
2 - You seem to be replying to me, yet don't actually read the posts, presume some nonsense that isn't even stated nor eluded to, and then proceed to double down on it without reading, whilst subsequently trying to be condescending.

But here's a throwback for you - I don't actually expect you to come to the realization of Point #2. Primarily because you don't actually seem to be interested in reading or trying to dissect the point. Don't worry though, you won't see me I can assure you, mainly because you've drastically misunderstood my posts and come to several incorrect conclusions regarding my posts.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Yeah, that is usually the case, the relics were designed in a way that would allow you to craft them with relatively low entry point stats, with the aim of eventually progressing towards an i510 relic which was released with 5.45, so we're likely to see the conclusion with the Crystalline tools occur with 6.45, which will allow them to also release the next set of blessed/resplendent tools with 6.55. I would expect the subsequent stages to use expert recipes in some form or fashion.

That much is granted, and this is a system I agree with. Progressive wherein you eventually get a tool 'exceeding', as opposed to just outright exceeding upon the first stage. with an equal difficulty progression system to accommodate.




I have never disputed that they aren't, my only dispute, again, is that tools exceeding Indagator need more of a progression behind them before they are better either through subsequent steps, e.g., a progressive system, something which I have iterated several times to be the case. I have never said that the tools aren't viewed as catch-up nor progression for the general audience just that the difficulty of them would not match what should be expected of something to exceed pentamelded gear.

If multiple sentences are difficult for you, which they seem to be... - I think the relic system is fine as is, however, I think it is too early and the requirements don't necessarily appropriately match the reward, currently to provide tools that exceed the current crafted with pentamelds.

FYI you're incorrect regarding Indagator being the final set we get between now and 7.0, .4 patches have always included a scrip counterpart which has historically been the catch-up gear, and the gear that also branches people between expansions on a budget. This gear will also most likely be 630.

I personally can't wait to see what a fool of yourself when you come to the realization that:
1 - I and the person who started this thread are not the same people, and I disagreed with their underlying point.
2 - You seem to be replying to me, yet don't actually read the posts, presume some nonsense that isn't even stated nor eluded to, and then proceed to double down on it without reading, whilst subsequently trying to be condescending.

But here's a throwback for you - I don't actually expect you to come to the realization of Point #2. Primarily because you don't actually seem to be interested in reading or trying to dissect the point. Don't worry though, you won't see me I can assure you, mainly because you've drastically misunderstood my posts and come to several incorrect conclusions regarding my posts.

What you're arguing is what already is going to be provided in the next patches. We are just starting the crafter relics. So I seriously dont know what the hell is your problem.

[Kaurhz]

What you're arguing is what already is going to be provided in the next patches. We are just starting the crafter relics. So I seriously dont know what the hell is your problem.

No, I was simply arguing that there is no necessary reason to currently, on this patch, at this point in time for the relic weapons to be more powerful than they already are (and specified reasons for this, being that relic is intended to be progressive, and has more steps before it is 'equally or more powerful' than a pentamelded counterpart, and if people think otherwise then the progression system should appropriately reflect this). As per my original post below.

To be clear, I assume that you're somehow going to read into this more than intended, so... The relic weapons at their current point are fine, what they offer is very appropriate. It is just not appropriate for them to be 'more powerful' than they already are at this current point in time. I argued this because those replying, and the OP seem to think they should be more powerful when it is a progressive system.

There was no win-win with this. On one hand they lul behind until the expansion is near concluded, alternatively they can put the relic ahead of crafted tools immediately, and in doing so you render the crafted tools irrelevant.

Simply put, the relic is progressive and is still a WIP, so they will end up being better, or on-par with pentamelded main-hand tool by the end of the expansion.

I then also subsequently argued the point that such small stat gains from, say, 620 to 625 don't really always result in a measurable change, e.g., doesn't change your rotation or consumables. If you have the Craftsmanship to synth, and additional craftsmanship doesn't change that then it is just burned stats. The same applies to control, if your loss or gain of control doesn't change the rotations you're using then it's just unnecessary.

To put this in the most basic view possible. - If I were to progress to and commit to melding my tools, and if I were to swap to those as opposed to using the Crystalline Tools then every single rotation I have would not change, nor would consumable usage change.

[Oldschoolegamer38]

No, I was simply arguing that there is no necessary reason to currently, on this patch, at this point in time for the relic weapons to be more powerful than they already are (and specified reasons for this, being that relic is intended to be progressive, and has more steps before it is 'equally or more powerful' than a pentamelded counterpart, and if people think otherwise then the progression system should appropriately reflect this). As per my original post below.

To be clear, I assume that you're somehow going to read into this more than intended, so... The relic weapons at their current point are fine, what they offer is very appropriate. It is just not appropriate for them to be 'more powerful' than they already are at this current point in time. I argued this because those replying, and the OP seem to think they should be more powerful when it is a progressive system.



I then also subsequently argued the point that such small stat gains from, say, 620 to 625 don't really always result in a measurable change, e.g., doesn't change your rotation or consumables. If you have the Craftsmanship to synth, and additional craftsmanship doesn't change that then it is just burned stats. The same applies to control, if your loss or gain of control doesn't change the rotations you're using then it's just unnecessary.

To put this in the most basic view possible. - If I were to progress to and commit to melding my tools, and if I were to swap to those as opposed to using the Crystalline Tools then every single rotation I have would not change, nor would consumable usage change.

What I am seeing is that the devs wanted to give folks different choices in how they go about crafting. but I think this is just the start...why should this game have absolutes why can't there be more options I used both crafted and crystalline tools and they both have there advantages and disadvantages. Correct me If I am wrong but has there ever been a passive bonus ever in this game outside of just having stats on an item? To my knowledge no. This is refreshing to see more options given to players I do not want to have just one set for everything, I would like to see more sets available to craft specifically for crafting stats. so seeing this is a good place to start.

Edit: GC gear gives a passive bonus so I am mistaken. but that should be given more for relic gear sets for crafting.

[TaleraRistain]

If it's anything like the Skybuilder Tools, the final step will require a Master Recipe. That's why I never finished my Needle, because I just didn't have the gear/skill for it. Even then, someone had to make me a custom macro to finish the Level 500 tool. I think I was on Blue Gear at the time?... Which I think we'll still get a set of in EW, though only Left side (no accesories), and won't be as good as a Penta'd Indagator set.

Point in case: These are gonna get harder and harder to make.

Another good point. And since we're required to use these to craft the items, they may be baking in an effect that helps with that.

We also don't know what potential changes might happen with crafting in the future. Could they perhaps make this effect more beneficial in normal recipes in the next expansion? I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility. So we may find ourselves very glad we put in the time to get them. And if not, they're still going to be nice glams. And it's nice that the Splendorous Tools weren't a one-off and crafting and gathering are getting these relic quests with stories instead of the system in ARR.