So why are the crafter relics.. bad.

[Gemina]

You are looking at it from the wrong angle, you are assuming that they never tried manually crafting and immediately started using macros, thus they find in boring, when in reality it's the case that they tried crafting and found it boring, but still needed it, thus they resorted to minimizing their engagement with the system by means of partial automation, while still reaping full benefits.

As for what they "find fun and engaging", that's the point, they don't, that's why they use macros, it's purely a means to an end.

And it would be a safe assumption to make. Especially in the terms of it being a means to an end. In which case the question shifts from what is fun about crafting, to what's the end goal? There's no reward for crossing the finish line with crafting, so if you can't find value with the journey then what exactly is the reason you're doing it at all? What's the means to this end you speak of? Enlighten me.

[VeyaAkemi]

And it would be a safe assumption to make. Especially in the terms of it being a means to an end. In which case the question shifts from what is fun about crafting, to what's the end goal? There's no reward for crossing the finish line with crafting, so if you can't find value with the journey then what exactly is the reason you're doing it at all? What's the means to this end you speak of? Enlighten me.

High tier food for raids, tinctures for raids, crafted gear for raids so they can get started on the tier because you do need that until you get the BiS drops from the raids themselves, glams that can only be obtained by crafting, selling all the previous and thus make money for the things they can't craft and are otherwise unwilling to farm like haircuts/minions/mounts from Deep Dungeon or Bozja... hell, some people like to just make money, because numbuh go up equals dopamine

No seriously, this is quite obvious, the goal is the crafted product, and then do something with said crafted product, all I cited are immediate goals for those crafted products, it's quite simple.

[Gemina]

High tier food for raids, tinctures for raids, crafted gear for raids so they can get started on the tier because you do need that until you get the BiS drops from the raids themselves, glams that can only be obtained by crafting, selling all the previous and thus make money for the things they can't craft and are otherwise unwilling to farm like haircuts/minions/mounts from Deep Dungeon or Bozja... hell, some people like to just make money, because numbuh go up equals dopamine

No seriously, this is quite obvious, the goal is the crafted product, and then do something with said crafted product, all I cited are immediate goals for those crafted products, it's quite simple.

I still fail to understand. All of what you said is obtainable through the MB. Even the MB itself can be used to make gil by buying low and selling high.

You've basically laid out the goal to crafting is more crafting. So if it is not fun, unfulfilled, and not engaging, then why are you doing it? Why put yourself through it if there are paths of lesser resistance?

[VeyaAkemi]

I still fail to understand. All of what you said is obtainable through the MB. Even the MB itself can be used to make gil by buying low and selling high.

You've basically laid out the goal to crafting is more crafting. So if it is not fun, unfulfilled, and not engaging, then why are you doing it? Why put yourself through it if there are paths of lesser resistance?

And you need gil to get things from MB, then most people will tell you the best way bar none to make money is to become a crafter, thus they do it to fulfil their need, even if they don't find joy in crafting itself, crafting is still the path of least resistance, that is still extremely simple to understand and it feels like you are being purposefully obtuse...

You are also extrapolating "doesn't enjoy crafting" as "dislike it", going from 10 to -10, when those people at around a 0, it's not fun to craft for them, but it it's also not unfun, they are just gonna do it while they wait on PF for it to fill, so they do it by clicking two buttons every minute or so while not even looking at the game.

[AmiableApkallu]

You are looking at it from the wrong angle, you are assuming that they never tried manually crafting and immediately started using macros, thus they find in boring, when in reality it's the case that they tried crafting and found it boring, but still needed it, thus they resorted to minimizing their engagement with the system by means of partial automation, while still reaping full benefits.

You don't even have to find crafting boring, per se.

At some point in my crafting career, I settled on my general strategies for low durability crafts and high durability crafts.

At some point later, I asked myself, "If I don't insist on minimizing steps all the time, I wonder if I can get away using <this> particular sequence of steps for a range of crafts?" The answer turned out to be, "Yes."

Thus, it became natural to put those steps into a macro. After all, why wouldn't I want to automate a repetitive task?

[Kaurhz]

I'm not complaining that relics are not better, I'm saying you shouldn't put down potential gear ideas because you're basing gear solely on marketboard gear.

It's asinine you think that. Oh relics are braindead? Then put crafting gear in savage content if you feel like that's challenging enough, lol. Marketboard garbage should never be bis and should not be balanced around either, it's sole purpose should be filler gear.

No, it is based largely on the idea that multiple approaches to gearing should be encouraged and that people shouldn't really be complaining when relics are known to be a progressive system. Now, if you were to make a similar thread on the practicality of scrip then I would have a lot to say that conforms to this principle. Just happens that the scrip is not relevant to this conversation. I would most especially have a lot more to say on the system as a whole, would it be that people made worthwhile threads on the matter?

Furthermore, as I have stated the relics have displayed no worthwhile grind behind them to warrant such a reward. If people want a tool that is better then the grind should be much more substantial to boot. In most use cases you simply won't see a measurable benefit with such small stat gains, which is why I put down the idea because I view the premise as being flawed. Craftsmanship whilst being lower or higher, if the craft is still synthesized within the same # of steps, then that additional craftsmanship is irrelevant. The same applies to the control stat, if the quality is reached regardless of whether you have, say, 4057 or 3997 control, then anything between that bracket is not really relevant.

It's asinine that I think what, precisely? - They are 'brain-dead' recipes. They are recipes that barely equate to the difficulty seen in Pactmaker recipes, similarly, these said recipes can also be completed in i560 gear. They require no form of investment whatsoever. Do you think otherwise?

I'm not sure why you bring around savage as being a requisite or even a remotely logical solution in the first place, in this respect the only asinine thing here is this suggestion, you took an extreme in a thinly veiled attempt to try and make a point. If anything, only the native difficulty of the recipes should be ramped up, be it whether doing them as expert recipes, or reintroducing desynthesis and/or Grand Company seals, for example. As I said, I think if you want the true best tool in the game, and of relic status then the grind/tedium/difficulty should be that of on-patch Resplendent tools.

[Atelier-Bagur]

No, it is based largely on the idea that multiple approaches to gearing should be encouraged and that people shouldn't really be complaining when relics are known to be a progressive system. Now, if you were to make a similar thread on the practicality of scrip then I would have a lot to say that conforms to this principle. Just happens that the scrip is not relevant to this conversation. I would most especially have a lot more to say on the system as a whole, would it be that people made worthwhile threads on the matter?

Furthermore, as I have stated the relics have displayed no worthwhile grind behind them to warrant such a reward. If people want a tool that is better then the grind should be much more substantial to boot. In most use cases you simply won't see a measurable benefit with such small stat gains, which is why I put down the idea because I view the premise as being flawed. Craftsmanship whilst being lower or higher, if the craft is still synthesized within the same # of steps, then that additional craftsmanship is irrelevant. The same applies to the control stat, if the quality is reached regardless of whether you have, say, 4057 or 3997 control, then anything between that bracket is not really relevant.

It's asinine that I think what, precisely? - They are 'brain-dead' recipes. They are recipes that barely equate to the difficulty seen in Pactmaker recipes, similarly, these said recipes can also be completed in i560 gear. They require no form of investment whatsoever. Do you think otherwise?

Newsflash, all progression in this game is meaningless anyway in the long term scheme of things. Just like with hardcore raids, its extremely easily accessible to do every savage content because the min ilv is so obtainable with crafted gear. The only reward for getting BiS is to do Ultimate. Guess where we see this design? Oh yeah crafters/gatherers, so you know what youre right in this regard because besides Expert Recipes, you really dont need the relic if you dont already have Indigator/pentameld.


However where your argument is flawed is that youre pushing on the concept that every player uses crafting macros for guarantee HQ recipes and this isnt true. Getting those macros to work requires both BiS, food and pentameld materia. So the relic tool being just as good as base indigator but also being easily upgradable to be better down the next few patches means that the relic and its bonuses will be worth it for hardcore and casual crafters. Actually stop and think for second rather than looking this shit at its base surface.


Plus its content that has something people can do, which is the whole point of an MMO based on progression anyway.

[Gemina]

And you need gil to get things from MB, then most people will tell you the best way bar none to make money is to become a crafter, thus they do it to fulfil their need, even if they don't find joy in crafting itself, crafting is still the path of least resistance, that is still extremely simple to understand and it feels like you are being purposefully obtuse...

You are also extrapolating "doesn't enjoy crafting" as "dislike it", going from 10 to -10, when those people at around a 0, it's not fun to craft for them, but it it's also not unfun, they are just gonna do it while they wait on PF for it to fill, so they do it by clicking two buttons every minute or so while not even looking at the game.

If it seems like I'm being obtuse, it's because I'm not finding any reasoning behind your logic. You say crafting is not fun, and have now shifted to its not "unfun". Can you not see how this is confounding? It would be much simpler for you to concede that there is some element to it that you do find enjoyable, but you're deliberately avoiding this in order to stand your ground.

Again, I will say crafting gives resistance if your end goal is to make money. Right now, if I was to break things down for my own character, 90% of the money she makes is through her retainers. None of which are crafters. There are two miners, one botanist, one fisher, and one combat retainer. The other 10% is made up from various means such as roulette bonuses, treasure maps, buy/sell trades, and crafting. What crafting does do for me is allows me to make my own items so I don't have to use the MB. But all this does is expense my time instead of my gil, and in many cases I could acquire the gil I need much faster or as fast as it would take me to craft the items myself.

In a recent thread I started about 'sometimes just needing a good grind', I mentioned how I was going to craft all of my i620 gear using as little gil as possible even though I do possess the means to just buy everything without scratching my back. Why do you suppose I would choose the path of the greatest resistance, especially if I am under the impression that the end goal to crafting is just more crafting? There's no reward. I didn't even get any achievements along the way.

The reward for this was delayed gratification. It was the journey itself of knowing I accomplished the end goal of upgrading my gear knowing I would not need to do it again until next expansion. Spending time away from combat. And not succumbing to temptation to just buy what I needed. There is value in this that goes beyond the game itself, and that is why I have difficulty grasping your logic.

If you just want to use macros because the process is repetitive and tedious, especially if you don't even create them yourself through your own trial and error process, I will always fail to get your point. Your purpose. The ends to your means. Even more so if that is gil. If there is a dopamine rush with seeing that value go up, then there is indeed an enjoyable aspect to crafting that you're not admitting to.

[Kaurhz]

snipping.

Oh really? I never would have known in my 8+ years of playing, thank you for such an eye-opening and informative statement. (/s) - Regardless of whether the progression is rendered moot in the long-term scheme of things, this does not matter nor does it detract from the satisfaction that one might have in achieving an objective, this has by far got to be one of the most reductive arguments I've quite possibly seen in a while, most especially when you don't seem to take the common courtesy of reading the post.

The argument was never whether these were needed, just whether the reward and the requirement therein would match, most especially for something that is known to be a relic and for a tool that people claim should be better than Indagator. If such should be the case then it needs either a more progressed system wherein the tool rewarded matches the grind required or a more upfront grind. The keyword in this paragraph is better, by the way.

No, my argument is not built on the assumption that every player uses macro crafts. It is built on the fact that absolutely everyone can craft the recipes required for the relic with drastically under-tuned stats that otherwise wouldn't be possible with even Pactmaker, or the more appropriate Indagator gear, so in this sense, they should not exceed that of pentamelded Indagator (just yet). If you feel insistent that this is not the case then I am more than happy to provide you with some evidence showing that it is otherwise possible without BiS, or pentameld.

Furthermore, I never disputed otherwise. My only dispute with respect to this was that if people wish for a tool that is measurably better than Indagator gear then more effort should be required to obtain such, either through an iterative/progressive system or through a more outright stringent grind to do so. Not that people should not have the tool in the first place. So how about you stop, read the posts, and then think, re-read them again, and then think, then reply in the future?

[VeyaAkemi]

then there is indeed an enjoyable aspect to crafting that you're not admitting to.

If you consider that to be an espect of crafting, then maybe that's it, but I don't, because I am talking the exact process of crafting, the exact process of knowing which buttons to pick from, personally, I don't find joy in that, it's predictable and dull, but I do find joy in finishing my own crafts, which I don't consider the same as enjoying crafting, macros allow you to skip the process of crafting, while keeping all other benefits of crafting, which I enjoy.

I also crafted every single one of my Indagator pieces myself, I got Perfectionist gear as a stepping stone by using my Custom Deliveries to get Purple Scrips, set up timers to gather every item, every last item got myself, I also did not do a single manual craft in the entire process, because I was doing that at level 70-ish for other things, and it was miserable, I would be substantially happier if crafting in XIV was like in other games where you just hit a button and it goes off on its own, but I still feel accomplished by going through the process of managing my items and gathering my resources, but going through a repeated, dull minigame over and over to get my things? nah I will do without.