So why are the crafter relics.. bad.

[Gemina]

Yeah, my thought process was, "Pentamelding these 10 items(body/accessories) make a lot of sense, even if it's costly, they benefit 8 different classes and will affect every craft I make up to until 7.0, pentamelding these 16 items does not, it'd be even more costly, and they only cover one class each".

I guess I will go ahead and start it today, if nothing else they look really nice.

Personally, I don't pentameld my tools so the relics are well worth it in my case. I have no issues with pentamelding gear because it can be used across all crafting classes. Dealing with the expense and RNG for 16 tools is well past my threshold, and the payoff isn't worth it because I also don't ever use macros, and I am only concerned with meeting the requirements to craft the recipes. The 17,000 quality requirement Expert recipes are the only thing I can't consistently craft, and roughly have about a 20% success rate with those. I am perfectly ok with that though. I can deal with that kind of RNG, and feel that is how it should be with the game's toughest recipes.

I just wish the crystalline tools came out before I put in the effort to craft the indigator's tools.

[Jojoya]

Did the OP do a "why are the Amazing Mandeville relics bad" thread that I missed or is it still a work in progress?

It's pretty dumb to compare the first stage of the relic tool against the Indagator tools when the Indagator tools are the best crafted tool we will get this expansion while chances are good we'll have at least 2 more upgrade stages for the relic tools.

It's even dumber to talk about the value of the relic tools compared to Indagator tools in macro crafting considering the majority of those who macro craft are:

1) relying on others to create those macros for them in the first place, and
2) more likely to have been using Pactmaker or Perfectionist tools before acquiring the relic tool.

[VeyaAkemi]

1) relying on others to create those macros for them in the first place, and

There are tools that use learning AI to generate functional macros based on your stats, so it's not necessary for them to rely on people to make the macros, but I guess they are still relying on the independant developers who make and upkeep those tools...

[Troxbark]

Doesn't really matter either way, you still bump into some form of deficit/issue.

you need to promote multiple methods of attaining gear, regardless of whether this is done through the market board or other means. To put this into perspective, if we were to go according to a direction wherein the crafter relics are immediately better then what precisely is the point in crafting the 610 main-hands in the first place and even engaging in the gearing process for these tools considering you can't even use said tools to craft the relic in the first place?

I'm sorry, but whilst you think this may resolves the problem, you just create problems in other areas as a result. So there will be a problem regardless, and crafting is in a weird state anyway in that... Let's say you make them tools be 625 compared to 620 as a nice little middle-ground, this won't always translate to a practical use e.g., overflowing quality and overflowing progress whilst not actually changing rotations or the efficiency in the first place.

E.g., in general use outside of very niche use-case, whilst the Skysteel tools were equal, if not superior to Penta-melded Aesthete's tools, and this was only a false sense because it changed absolutely nothing in terms of efficiency (Outside of expert recipes - Which these tools already cover)

It's MARKETBOARD gear, why are you defending it? It's contentless fast food gear and should be treated as such.

Make the indigators tools 5 ilvls lower. You can still craft everything, you give relic a slight advantage without have to *fine tune* relic stats or anything else.

You want quick, easy and effortless gear, marketboard. You want a bis? It should be Relic or something else even if it's released in a short amount of time.

[Iyrnthota]

There are tools that use learning AI to generate functional macros based on your stats, so it's not necessary for them to rely on people to make the macros, but I guess they are still relying on the independant developers who make and upkeep those tools...

That sounds boring to me honestly. Half the fun of crafting for me is trying to come up with workable macros based on my non-optmised gear.

[VeyaAkemi]

That sounds boring to me honestly. Half the fun of crafting for me is trying to come up with workable macros based on my non-optmised gear.

A lot of people don't think crafting is remotely "fun", it's a means to an end, something you do to get something specific done so you can use that something, so they take the easy and optimized way out, so they can get value out of crafting while minimizing their engagement with it, it's hardly difficult to understand why.

[Kaurhz]

It's MARKETBOARD gear, why are you defending it? It's contentless fast food gear and should be treated as such.

Make the indigators tools 5 ilvls lower. You can still craft everything, you give relic a slight advantage without have to *fine tune* relic stats or anything else.

You want quick, easy and effortless gear, marketboard. You want a bis? It should be Relic or something else even if it's released in a short amount of time.

Simple, because it nullifies the 'effort' and the point of having the crafted counterpart in the first place and the melding required therein regardless of whether you can or cannot purchase them, the only thing I am defending here is the very fact you would be eliminating the tools very early on regardless of how these tools are obtained is frankly irrelevant since people are still required to meet the stats to craft them and similarly were required to farm for them.

If you think that the crafter relics for 90% of their entire progression weren't content-less fast food-esque level of stuff then you're deluding yourself. Let's look at it, shall we... Crafter relics have you grinding for scrips - Guess what else asks you to do this? the tradeable Indagator tool. If you view the relic thus far, and even arguably through 95% of Shadowbringers as substantial content with a worthwhile grind then you're kidding yourself.

As per my initial post, regardless of whether the crafted tools are 5 item level lower or whether the relic would turn out 5 item level higher, there is very little or no measurable benefit in doing so, seeing as how the stats with crafting work.

Unless those relics provide meaningful change to your rotation and/or your consumption usage, then for all intents and purposes regardless of whether they are 620, or 625 then they provide absolutely no tangible benefit. - This was the case for 99% of situations involving the skysteel tools.

The relics are effortless gear for crafting. if you think that a temporal equal-to alternative existing on the marketboard changes this fact then you're kidding yourself. doing 50 crafts is not a grind. If you want these relics to be measurably better on same patch, then frankly people should be required to undertake a grind equal to, if not worse than the resplendent on a 1:1 basis.

Now with all due respect, if you're arguing that a relic that has required 50 crafts amounting to the equivalent of less than a day's work to get all relics warrants a tool that exceeds that of pentamelding in a measurable sense then you're advocating for a pretty effortless grind still. These haven't even asked for expert recipes, nor recipes exceeding the crafted variant in difficulty, and you're complaining about the tools not being better?

There are tools that use learning AI to generate functional macros based on your stats, so it's not necessary for them to rely on people to make the macros, but I guess they are still relying on the independant developers who make and upkeep those tools...

These functional macros generated by AI are still subpar and inefficient when compared to people that actually know how to make a macro.

[Gemina]

A lot of people don't think crafting is remotely "fun", it's a means to an end, something you do to get something specific done so you can use that something, so they take the easy and optimized way out, so they can get value out of crafting while minimizing their engagement with it, it's hardly difficult to understand why.

It is difficult to comprehend when players say something isn't fun or engaging when they rip it out themselves. Same can be said with combat and players just look up rotations instead of trying to come up with them on their own using the tools given to them in the game. It is the pinnacle example of why instant gratification fails to provide a long term benefit.

I would love for any macro crafter to explain to me what they find fun and engaging about crafting. Especially if they didn't come up with the macro themselves.

[VeyaAkemi]

These functional macros generated by AI are still subpar and inefficient when compared to people that actually know how to make a macro.

Yes but that also means you don't need to meet certain specific stat thresholds to use them since they are always tailored to your own stats, making them far more practical for some, if the cost of "inefficiency" is only time, it is a very valid alternative.

It is difficult to comprehend when players say something isn't fun or engaging when they rip it out themselves.

You are looking at it from the wrong angle, you are assuming that they never tried manually crafting and immediately started using macros, thus they find in boring, when in reality it's the case that they tried crafting and found it boring, but still needed it, thus they resorted to minimizing their engagement with the system by means of partial automation, while still reaping full benefits.

As for what they "find fun and engaging", that's the point, they don't, that's why they use macros, it's purely a means to an end.

[Troxbark]

snip.

I'm not complaining that relics are not better, I'm saying you shouldn't put down potential gear ideas because you're basing gear solely on marketboard gear.

It's asinine you think that. Oh relics are braindead? Then put crafting gear in savage content if you feel like that's challenging enough, lol. Marketboard garbage should never be bis and should not be balanced around either, it's sole purpose should be filler gear.