Thread: V 2.0 Concerns

As v 2.0 approaches, I find my excitment for it going through the roof. Being the crazy Final Fantasy fan that I am, I will most likely enjoy the final product no matter what, but on top of that,I want 2.0 to be successful to the masses. With all the excitment, however, comes much concern for what 2.0 turns out to be in the long run. In the following weeks i want to take some topics and share my opinion, as well as get some feedback on your own.

Note; I understand that we know nothing of what awaits us in 2.0, these are just my worries, my personal little rant.

The Ideal moment

"Incoming mob!" says the puller as he runs into the camp with a crab folloing behind. Thief starts to ready Sneak attack and Trick Attack, while the tank lines up with crab's back. Positioning himself behind the tank,the Thief readies Viper Bite (weapon skill), Critical hit! You fooled the mobs threat back onto the tank, job well done.

Tactics and teamwork, that is the feeling you get from playing countless scenarios in FFXI. Now i like to compare FFXIV battle system to FFXI, not because they are both Final Fantasy, but because their battle systems are so similar in many ways. I'm not saying that as a negative thing either, i like to think of that as a positive since they're so many MMOs that feel like WoW.As for a more teamwork based system? FFXIV seems to be going in that direction from what it seems come 2.0 which is great, but wait! i forgot to mention something very important in my example, 1 minute cooldown for both Sneak Attack and Trick Attack. This, my friends, is where my first concern sets in.

What does it mean to be Final Fantasy

I like to associate Final Fantasy battles with high speed, intense, and also highly animated. Whether it be Kain doing crazy jumps all over the place, or Tifa fighting in the church in Advent Children, Final Fantasy fights always play out at a fast pace in our heads. Growing up on older Final Fantasy titles, imagination played a big part in how we portrayed all those turn based battles in our heads, only enforced even more with the introduction of the ATB mechanic. It trained us to think fast, act quickly, and try to stay one step ahead of the curve.

Playing my Dragoon in FFXIV, while very fun,does not give me the sense of Final Fantasy, for you see, it's not only just about having those signature movesets, its about maintaining that sense of speed that Final Fantasy has been known for. If it means buffing mobs in the game a bit more, just so that players can have a smaller gap between their auto attack, and their weapon skills, then so be it. When my dragoon uses a weapon skill, he does it in a slow manner,while in my mind he should be swinging his lance like a mad man. Jump is such a quick, but extremely detailed animation that truly captures the spirit of a Dragoon, but it is held back by a 1 minute cooldown.

Doing primal fights i notice many times, people standing idle thinking, or holding back what they should do next. It should never get to that point, people should be on their toes, constantly doing something, anything! If your mind is a step behind your opponents, you best to keep yourself moving until you can catch up with the battle. Dissidia takes this mentality and runs with it, giving it such a unique FF feel. When your opponent is coming at you at full force, what is your first reaction? Dodge, Dodge, and Dodge some more until you can find a place to turn the tables, all of that at such a quick pace.

TL;DR :Imagine if you will, chaining combos, not with yourself, but with a friend back to back, with a speed of Final Fantasy 13 combat? How about ending almost all your combos with a Dragon Kick or Jump? It all comes down to the image of Final Fantasy as a whole. I want friends to see me playing and get excited at all the combos i could be doing with another person at a constant pace, rather than me saying "wait a second my abilites are on a 30 second, 1 minute cooldown, ill do something cool in a minute." I really want to love this game come 2.0, and battle speed is something that i feel needs some work.

Ill be back next week with my next topic, until then your thoughts?

I think the new battle regime system may alleviate this.

I hope it's quite an expansive system, and that it expands on the self combo system. my DRG buddy uses jump, my shoulder tackle lights up.

Jump! => Shoulder Tackle! => Spirits within! => Stonera!

Although i don't know if this captures the essence of final fantasy per se. but i'm an old fart.

To me final fantasy was an immersive world more than combat. only a few FFs have direct combos. and it was more synergy between characters. and to me FF was never fast paced. (see FFT, 20-30 minute battles ftw) and even ATB was a bit slow to me. faster than turn based sure, but i had already planned my attacks ahead of time.

some of the young guys are coming in and haven't really played some of the old school games. And i can understand why, they are quite obsolete in terms of gratifying entertainment. especially when you compare FFIII to dissidia. but when i see 'FF is supposed to be fast paced.' i have to scratch my head a little.

a problem the devs have is making 'something for everyone' its' really making a great game within the confines of the FF world.

as an example, if i see an enemy coming at me full force, my first reaction is to put my shield in front of me and brace for impact. I need to buy time for my allies to position themselves and counter-attack. someone else might charge back, or fire an arrow, or begin casting a spell, or parry/riposte, or....

I also don't feel battle speed needs work, but i think the intensity of battle could use some work.

and really i think the game is too solo friendly right now. I've found it nearly impossible to find a party below 40.

my big concern for 2.0 is that there is poor adoption to the market. people just wont' be interested and the majority of the population will continue to be maxed out and have little interest/incentive to level lower jobs and help the newbies climb. vast majority of players will come in on release, but for people who pick it up one or two years later it can be a nightmare.

I agree completely with what you are saying, and "intensity" is probably the better word to describe what i want more so than speed. On that note though, i recently saw a video for extreme Ifrit, and almost half the comments were about "animation lock" and how bad it can screw you over, which leads me to believe that animations need to be quicker, giving the game a greater sense of speed. In a way, however, i do fear too much speed because i dont want this game to become like WoW. Ill share more of my opinion later as i have to go to work now lol

There needs to be a balance between fast-paced and slow strategic combat. I think the combo system we have now is a good start, but something desperately needs to be done about animation lock and positional lag. I can't tell you the number of times I appear to be behind a mob, only to find out the game thinks I'm still at its side.

One thing I'd also like to see is a reduced cooldown on some abilities when they're used in a combo.

I still miss battle regimens.

Originally Posted by Eekiki

There needs to be a balance between fast-paced and slow strategic combat. I think the combo system we have now is a good start, but something desperately needs to be done about animation lock and positional lag. I can't tell you the number of times I appear to be behind a mob, only to find out the game thinks I'm still at its side.

One thing I'd also like to see is a reduced cooldown on some abilities when they're used in a combo.

I still miss battle regimens.

I think the cooldowns are probably the biggest problem when it comes to speed. Jump is THE signature Dragoon move, and i think i should be able to use it more than every min.

I haven't experienced animation lock yet. but there's a catch 22 there. I'd like to have epic looking abilities and skills. if animation lock becomes a part of that, it's something i'll have to work around.

to alleviate it, i would suggest adding in something similar to a 'roman cancel' that is used in some fighting games. have it consume remaining TP, cancel your current animation (and consequently any damage you would have done), and/or remove any combo effect that is active.

however i feel this would be incredibly difficult to implement, since the main server is in Japan. and i'm assuming most calculation are done when the button press is recognized. so if server lag is the inherent issue it wont' help that much.

still a roman cancel would help in certain situations i'm sure.

of course they could always allow you to move during the animation. i don't know how it compares to FFXI's animation lock , but based on the frequency of complaints i've seen i imagine it is a bit worse. there are a couple of things that could be done to alleviate this, but that's really up to the devs if they think it is worthwhile. they may be expecting us to strategically work around animation lock.

I think most FF fans are more inclined to intense strategic combat, regardless of pace. you can have a fine middle ground. I thought XI managed this fairly well, but i was primarily tank. And i have to admit being a DD was a bit more monotonous. there was just less to worry about. (of course being a tank main, that meant i knew how to manage my hate line and never really pulled hate unless i wanted to)

i'm not sure what the big deal is with people having down time on combos. i think that's more player management. I typically don't have a lot of downtime when i'm on MNK when i'm comboing. if i do have down time, i've strategically placed it on my spinning heel CD. by the time this wears off i'm usually in line to do my combos again. I know about how long it takes to execute a combo, so CD management is really what i focus on, and not just spam willy-nilly. but this may be different for other classes.