Removal of Positionals

[Ransu]

Those scenarios always assume that a party plays perfectly. I dunno how many times in PF a couple of people died and we barely made it before the enrage. It definitely can be impactful. It's more damage. If people are so bothered by it there are options. It's like playing a tank and then complain about having to use mitigation.

Like how boring do you want the job system to become? Dungeons are already boring, since bosses are a joke, as is trash, you're missing a lot of abilities, AoEs don't require positioning, you have no TP and infinite MP... like at what point do we stop removing stuff and ad to it again? Everything is being taken away under the guise of QoL or because it's "so easy" yet people fail to see the bigger picture. I take minimal interaction over no interaction at this point.

TP was horrible. If you played MNK good luck managing your TP without someone using goad on you. Good riddance to that garbage.

[Kazimere]

Those scenarios always assume that a party plays perfectly. I dunno how many times in PF a couple of people died and we barely made it before the enrage. It definitely can be impactful. It's more damage. If people are so bothered by it there are options. It's like playing a tank and then complain about having to use mitigation.

Like how boring do you want the job system to become? Dungeons are already boring, since bosses are a joke, as is trash, you're missing a lot of abilities, AoEs don't require positioning, you have no TP and infinite MP... like at what point do we stop removing stuff and ad to it again? Everything is being taken away under the guise of QoL or because it's "so easy" yet people fail to see the bigger picture. I take minimal interaction over no interaction at this point.

I'm not opposed to positionals. I'm just being objective. They're something, but they aren't necessary to beat an event. They used to be necessary, because the penalty was huge. If you missed your positional for TA, no buff for the raid. If you missed your positional for Wheeling Thrust you couldn't Fang and Claw (or vice versa). If you missed your positional for Samurai, you weren't going to get as much kenki, so you better pay attention. Even if you didn't have as severe as penalty as what I just typed, the potency loss was significant from one miss alone. These were meaningful impacts that could actually affect an event. Now, you just lose a little potency. So, what's the point outside of the subjective feeling that you need to twitch. It was the same thing with Kaiten. People were up in arms over nostalgia. Losing it had no meaningful impact to Samurai's game play in EW. Ask to bring back meaningful impact, instead of arguing to keep non meaningful things because of "feels."

Having said that. Has SoE even said they were taking positional attacks away, or is this just people fearing that they're going to be taken away?

[Shurrikhan]

TP was horrible. If you played MNK good luck managing your TP without someone using goad on you. Good riddance to that garbage.

Agreed. To be fair, though, they could have solved that by just granting TP and MP per GCD's time (50 TP per as little as 1.8 seconds in Monk's case, rather than a fixed 60 per 3). Voila.

[ShaneDawn]

To be honest the notion that positionals get in the way of parses is really silly. Anyone that cares about parses and is competent at their job should be happy to have ways to display skill expression and set themselves apart from other players within the same job. Although the current trend in fight and job design seem to be going the complete opposite direction. :shrug:

[Payadopa]

I'm not opposed to positionals. I'm just being objective. They're something, but they aren't necessary to beat an event. They used to be necessary, because the penalty was huge. If you missed your positional for TA, no buff for the raid. If you missed your positional for Wheeling Thrust you couldn't Fang and Claw (or vice versa). If you missed your positional for Samurai, you weren't going to get as much kenki, so you better pay attention. Even if you didn't have as severe as penalty as what I just typed, the potency loss was significant from one miss alone. These were meaningful impacts that could actually affect an event. Now, you just lose a little potency. So, what's the point outside of the subjective feeling that you need to twitch. It was the same thing with Kaiten. People were up in arms over nostalgia. Losing it had no meaningful impact to Samurai's game play in EW. Ask to bring back meaningful impact, instead of arguing to keep non meaningful things because of "feels."

Having said that. Has SoE even said they were taking positional attacks away, or is this just people fearing that they're going to be taken away?

I get that. But then people would complain the punishment is too harsh so we arrived at this compromise (which I don't share, honestly). Leave the MSQ accessable but give me a skill ceiling back by way of interesting abilities. Also, just to counter your "positionals aren't necessary" argument, so is Raise. "Just dodge stuff lol". And yet it's still a thing. The minimalist approach is what ultimately removes the game part out of the game.

At least people should voice their concern when SE makes moves to make something redundant because they have a terrible track record of giving anything meaningful back in exchange.

We were told after ShB to wait since it's all being done to have a proper foundation from which to build from and after EW it turns out this was pretty much not the case as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not giving them the benefit of doubt anymore. Just stop butchering jobs and the battle system in general.

[Payadopa]

TP was horrible. If you played MNK good luck managing your TP without someone using goad on you. Good riddance to that garbage.

So instead of rebalancing the system or making minor changes it got deleted. I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Also, hard disagree on Goad. Having to rely on others in an MMO is great design. Not this main character syndrom we have right now. But that's another discussion entirely. Heh

[Payadopa]

To be honest the notion that positionals get in the way of parses is really silly. Anyone that cares about parses and is competent at their job should be happy to have ways to display skill expression and set themselves apart from other players within the same job. Although the current trend in noth fight and job design seem to be going the complete opposite direction. :shrug:

I agree. Everyone complains about SMN being this boring in terms of rotation/optimisation (I love the concept, though) but people here are asking for all jobs to essentially turn more and more into it, funnily enough.

Removing systems is not the answer to stale design.

[Kazimere]

I get that. But then people would complain the punishment is too harsh so we arrived at this compromise (which I don't share, honestly). Leave the MSQ accessable but give me a skill ceiling back by way of interesting abilities. Also, just to counter your "positionals aren't necessary" argument, so is Raise. "Just dodge stuff lol". And yet it's still a thing. The minimalist approach is what ultimately removes the game part out of the game.

At least people should voice their concern when SE makes moves to make something redundant because they have a terrible track record of giving anything meaningful back in exchange.

I get that. We were told after ShB to wait since it's all being done to have a proper foundation from which to build from and after EW it turns out this was pretty much not the case as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not giving them the benefit of doubt anymore. Just stop butchering jobs and the battle system in general.

Fair enough. We can say all we want, but we both know SoE is going to do what they want. Having said that, unless they have come out saying they are removing positional attacks, I don't see it happening. If their intention was to make things more accessible while not being impactful to the point of failing an event, then they have achieved that. Nothing changes except a small hit to potency that won't make or break an event.

[UkcsAlias]

Removing systems is not the answer to stale design.

Removing systems makes things more stale. As any removed system makes things more of the same.

Great for those who dont want to learn, variety, min/max or specialists. But bad for those who want to be able to do a lot of things.

Positionals in the current state do feel lackluster, but thats mostly because the other roles are even more lackluster. If the other roles also get a positional based system, this could be improved. Especialy ranged dps jobs could still feature a positional system, and maybe even with extra factors. And surely, initialy they will also feel lackluster, but you need a good start to expand things.

Reaper already shows that on a melee dps positionals often arent realy needed, except for chaining certain effects. And for ranged dps, even if its this simple, it can do a lot. Once they get positionals, the melee dps's can get additional ones with more effects.
And yes, it often will still mean making small steps towards a side, but that is caused by a diffirent issue: engine and latency limitations.

As the server framerate often ends up being low, there arent a lot of boss positional changes. Because each move now already suffers from that latency issue, so you dont want them too often. If this part becomes more reliable, that no longer should be an issue. And that allows more to be added.

[Arkdra]

I think positionals are ok. I play Reaper though so it's not like I have a lot and I did hate them while I was leveling monk. That said, there's 0 point to having positionals on overworld monsters outside of like, A/S hunts so I wish overworld monsters didn't have them but don't want them removed from instances.